CURVES: Robert Lay’s Story
The American dream of owning your own successful business seems to be going up in smoke for a lot of the Curves Franchise owners. The story you are about to read may seem like a Steven King horror novel but it is a real story that has happened to my wife and I. To all of the past, present and future owners of a Curves franchise please take the time to read the whole story as at the end we explain what we plan to do and how you as an ex or present owner may want to get involved.
My wife and I had owned and operated our own business for over 20 years and had been very successful at doing so. While we were making a great income from our business there was something missing in our life. Neither us felt that we were contributing to society but just taking and we decided to make a major change in our life. That was when we heard about Curves for Women. It was a new franchise that only had 300 or so clubs and for the first time in years we both became excited at the prospect of actually helping people reach their goals. We bought our first club in 1997 located in a city of thirty thousand. From the first day it opened it was more successful than our wildest dreams. Not only were we making excellent money but the personal rewards helping people better their lives was a truly rewarding feeling. I can still remember as if it was yesterday the first time a Dr. of one of our members came in to check out what we were doing as he couldn’t believe the ch
anges his patient had gone through. She had gotten off her high blood medication and had lost over 40 pounds in 4 months. It was truly amazing and over the years we have seen it happen numerous times over and over.
We sold our first club in 2001 and bought two more franchises. My wife became a mentor for Curves International around this time and I was helping to sell franchise for Curves International as so many of are members wanted to own a club. It was at this time that we started to see problems arising with Curves International but we attributed it to the fast growth that Curves was going through. In 2002 we bought two more franchises but this time they were in what was called a metro-area instead of city under thirty thousand in population.
The first problem we encountered with Curves International was in early 2003. Curves sold a franchise that was a corridor of land between one of our franchise’s and the next city 8 miles from our southern boarder. It was obvious to us that the territory didn’t have the necessary population to support a facility and that Curves International was selling any location just out of greed and the fact that there were so many people who wanted a franchise. The people who bought that franchise tried to open up on our border but it had always been an unwritten but followed rule of Curves International that you open in the middle of your territory so that disputes between owners over stealing members from your territory didn’t arise. We immediately filed a complaint with Curves International and they stopped the new owner from opening at that location. Unfortunately for the new owners there were no other commercial locations between the two cities so they were forced into selling that franchise back to Curves International for a loss.
It was also at this time that Curves International started to change personnel. The employee’s who we had a personal relationship with that had started Curves International with Gary Heavin were leaving the company at an alarming rate. Seven employees that were the top management of Curves left or were forced out because of Gary Heavin’s greed. They ended up filling a law suit against Curves which was later settled out of court. It was at this time that Diane Heavin became involved with Curves and a whole new history was being written about how Curves was started. The original Curves member guide which was written by Gary Heavin and June Manley was taken off the market and the new Curves book authored by of course Gary Heavin was on the top 10 of the Times best seller list.. To make sure it was on the Times best seller list all the clubs had to order at least on case. That is when we as owners realized Heavin was a manipulator and not the born again Christian he portrayed to be. It was also at this time that the price to buy a franchise more than doubled in price. This came as quite a surprise as Heavin had always maintained that he would never ever increase his franchise price and he even swore on the bible in front of a group at club camp that he would never break his word on that. Well as we all know he didn’t keep that promise for long, which just shows his greed.
At this point my wife and I became quite concerned and even considered selling our business but other problems arose concerning Curves International that demanded our full attention. In 2004 another Curves location located on our boarder of one of our metro-areas hired two of our employees and stole around 15 members from our club. Both employees had signed the anti covenant not to compete and in our state those agreements are strictly enforced by the courts. We considered going to court but since it was another Curves facility we decided to file a complaint with Curves International. And to let them handle it. What a mistake that was as they did nothing. We transferred the members files but refused to transfer the money for the members dues until such time that Curves International responded to our complaint. We were told by the area director, which was a new position at Curves International, that we were trouble makers and he refused to send any of are clubs the members appreciation bags. Shortly thereafter Curves International resold the corridor of land that had been sold back to them at a loss from the previous owners and they allowed the new owners to open up in nearly the same location that they had refuse the previous owners only a year and a half before. The new owners advertised in our area and ended up getting 10 or 11 members to transfer to their club. Again we held their monthly dues but did transfer the members files. We immediately filed a complaint but again got the same response nothing. It didn’t take long for most of the members who transferred to come back to our club as the other location was small and in a very run down area and to this day that club has not shown a profit and has been sold numerous times over the years for little to nothing.
Then in 2005 the real problems with Curves International started that we are still contending with today. In one of our metro-areas a competitor by the name of Ladies Workout Express opened up right across the street from our location. Unknown to us they had hired our manager and one other employee from that location and when the employee’s left they had stolen off our computer our member files. They ended up stealing over two thirds of our membership with in a week. The employees had signed the covenant not to compete so we immediately hired a lawyer and prepared for a lawsuit. As I stated before in our state that agreement is strictly enforced but it took four months to get it into court. During this time that location was losing so much money that we decided to move the location next to our other territory so that both clubs could stay open. We sent in the required change of location form to Curves International but never heard anything back from them so we went ahead and relocated in late 05. The owners of the Ladies Workout Express eventually went broke because of the lawsuit and the fact that they would end up owing us monetary damages. They filed for bankruptcy to prevent us from collecting any monetary awards in Dec 05 but we did have the satisfaction knowing that we did what was right
In early 06 we were informed by Curves International that because we abandon that location they were terminating all of our franchise agreements. We immediately requested mediation for all of our clubs which is authorized by our franchise agreements with Curves International. We never heard back from them so we hired a lawyer in Waco, TX to represent us. He proceeded to send them a letter requesting the same mediation process and they did respond to him. They sent him letter stating that it was premature to go through the mediation process at that time as they were in the process of researching our reason for moving. Curves International continued to debit our account for the franchise and advertising fees for all the other clubs we owned but stopped talking the fees for the one territory that they stated we abandoned. The lawyer had us send Curves International a check for the fees and a new authorization form for them to deduct it from our account. Neither our lawyer or ourselves ever heard anything back from Curves International so we all assumed that things were back to normal.
In the spring of 07 we made the decision to start selling off all of our clubs and to completely retire. It didn’t take me long to sell the club we owned that wasn’t in a metro-area and I agreed to stay with the new owner’s to help train them how to run the business. We sent all the documentation into Curves International and the sale was completed by January 08. That freed my wife and I up to concentrate on our metro-area clubs and to get them ready for sale. In Feb of 08 we heard that a Curves club was opening in one of our territories within a mile of our current club. We could not understand how Curves International could do such a thing. We again filed a complaint by phone and e-mail to Curves International and several weeks later we were informed by e-mail that they didn’t know what we were talking about. We were told we didn’t own any franchises and hadn’t since we were terminated in 05. That came as quite a shock to my wife and I as our franchise and advertising fee’s had been deducted all along from our checking account and we had just recently sold a club that they were telling us we never owned. We had a local lawyer send a letter to the new owners explaining the situation and that we would be seeking legal recourse against Curves International and depending on the outcome they were opening themselves up to a potential lawsuit. During this time we had bought and paid in full for the Smart Equipment for Curves International and were waiting for the installation which was scheduled for the June 24th. On June 20th , a Friday we received a phone message telling us that the Curves Smart Installation was canceled and that we had to call Curves legal for an explanation. We left messages both e-mail and phone every 30 minutes on Monday June 23rd and finally late in the afternoon we received an e-mail stating that one of there lawyers would be in touch with us before the end of the day, They never sent an e-mail or a phone call as was promised but by mid day the next day they did respond by e-mail. It stated because of the problems with the members transfers, the fact that we abandoned a franchise, and that we had interfered with the opening of the new franchise located in our territory we weren’t approved for the Curves Smart. Yet in late May they had sent all the promotional ad material for the Curves Smart and of course we had gone to a considerable amount of expense for training the employees, advertising and promotion of the Curves Smart equipment. It was at this point that my wife and I decided that drastic action had to be taken against Heavin and Curves International.
While we still love the concept of Curves we feel that because of the deceptive and we believe fraudulent business practices that Heavin has allowed under his management Curves will eventually end up in the toilet so to speak. After spending many hours on the internet we have found that there are many lawsuits against this man and his company. Just read some of the post’s that are on franchisepick.com from owners concerning the new ten thousand fee if your club goes under and closes to the vitamins that were sold in Feb and March by Ideas in Action at a discount to owners without telling them that they would expire at the end of May. The lack of support and communication from Curves International that all of us owners are going through is intolerable. It is impossible for an owner to get through to them on the phone and good luck if you expect a call back in a timely manor. The fact that we as owners pay a lot of money for our advertising fees and have no accounting of where it is spent and a quite frankly we never see many ads in our area.
I have taken the time to do the necessary research to find several good lawyers who handle franchise law who are more than willing to help Curves owners who are having similar problems with Curves. I for one am going to go after Curves International and Gary Heavin in a court of law. These are not class action but group action lawsuit and if you don’t understand the difference contact me and I will explain it to you. There have been over 200 such lawsuit filed against Curves in the last several years and while some have been settled in mediation others are in the process of going to litigation. If you are a past or present Curves owner who has experienced these problems and want satisfaction whether it be monetary or revenge please contact me. We have several options that we can go and I for one am positive we will win as the other lawsuits have been successful so far and have set a precedent for ours. It is time for the owners of Curves franchises either past or present to stand up together and put a stop to Heavins’s ramped destruction of peoples lives just for monetary greed.
Thanks for reading our post and God Bless you all.
ARE YOU AN CURVES FRANCHISE OWNER OR FORMER CURVES FRANCHISEE?
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CURVES FRANCHISE OPPORTUNITY?
PLEASE SHARE A COMMENT BELOW.
Unhappy,
Where are you? I would kind of like to know the answer to the question that Kim Heffington has posed also—you wrote of this breaking news on Feb. 28–about the excess costs that Howie has charged over the years…….I know of one…just to get my name off the franchise agreement when my partner bought out my share, I had to pay CI $2000. Wish I knew then what I know now and I sure would have fought that charge, but I just wanted OUT!
Undecided
My wife was hospitalized over a week ago and didn’t get released until Wen. of last week and unfortunately while I was up there everyday I caught a very nasty virus and have been sick since last Wednesday the day she got out. It was a hell of a cold both chest and head (sinus) and for a couple of days we were concerned that it was the swine virus. I’m just getting over it but now my wife is coming down with it. I have some very interesting new and once I’m caught up with all the emails from clubs that have requested help closing I will post all the news of CI here in a day or two. Please be patient and check back here over the next couple of days.
Unhappy–I’m so sorry to hear of you and your wife’s illnesses. Hope you are both on the road to a speedy recovery and I’m sure all here do the same. Thanks for getting back to us in a timely manner.
Oprah wants input from viewers as to who she should interview in 2010. I think everyone should send her an e-mail and tell her to interview Gary, or maybe all the owners whose lives he has destroyed.
Here’s the link
https://www.oprah.com/ownshow/plug_form.html?plug_id=3337311
curves doesnt even fit the 2010 standard ACSM guidelines for weight management or weight loss..
the starndard has been updated to an hour A DAY..not 30 minutes 3 times a week..
SCREW YOU HOWARD! Time to payback all that you stole..from randy and from your franchisees.. your unethical lying non christian sob
Hello everyone, I’m finally back and have some interesting info to share with all curves owners. So much has happened since my last post I don’t know where all to start. First off lets start with the 10,000 dollar closing fee that by now most if not all owners know not to pay. If you or any owners that you know paid any portion of the so called closing fee listen up as you are entitled to a refund. First off if you will think back on the time that you paid the fee when closing early you were intimidated, threatened, and lied to by CI in order to get you to pay some portion of the closing fee. CI claimed that if you refused to pay the fee you would be turned over to legal as you were in breach of your contract. CI enticed owners into paying this closing fee by offering a so called “mutual release” thus preventing any future legal problems with CI for closing early.(Of course this was not the case as many owners were still sued even after paying the fee and recieving the “mutual release”} CI was fully aware that the future franchise and advertising fees could not be collected once you close. So in reality CI was using extortion tactics to get owners to pay the closing fee.
All owners who have paid any portion of that closing fee are entitled to a refund but it should be obvious that Heavin is going to refuse to give the owners any money back. So here is what we are purposing to do to get that money back from Curves and Howie. First off you must send a written letter to Curves requesting your closing fees to be refunded at once as you feel it was money that was extroted from you. Make sure you send it registared reciept so you have a record of CI recieving it. Once you have recieved a responce from CI refusing your request send an email to Admin at this address unhappyfranchisee[at]gmail.com with your name, address, and phone number. In the subject box put closing fee and the amount you paid. We have lawyers who have agreed to file a group action lawsuit against curves in order for owners who have paid a portion of that fee to recoop some of thier money they paid. The lawyers will take the case on a contengency basis of 33% but they have set a dollar limit amount that we must obtain before they will handle the cases. In order for the lawyer’s to take the case we need a minimum dollar amout of $600,000.00. That shouldn’t be too hard to get to considering how many Curves clubs closed in the last 2 years. Now I know we have had a disscussion before on this board where some current owner tries to tell you that the only person who makes money in these cases is the lawyer but think about it. If you paid the minimum of $3,000.00 you will recieve $2,010.00. While it may not be the total you paid but for most of the owners who have had to close it is better than not getting anything back at all from this corrupt corporation known as Curves.
[Disclaimer: The statements & opinions expressed in the comments sections of this site are that of the comment authors alone and not necessarily shared nor are they endorsed by UnhappyFranchisee.com, its owners or its administrators. As we do not allow posting of email addresses or personal contact information, we will forward email messages via unhappyfranchisee[at]gmail.com on request. However, forwarding does not imply endorsement or participation. We advise our readers to seek qualified legal counsel on all matters regarding franchise agreements, relationship and contractual obligations. – ADMIN UnhappyFranchisee.Com]
It has been brought to our attention that the transfer fee Curves International has charged in the past is also illegal in most States. Curves International has been trying to charge exorbitant fees for quite some time. I believe that they are now charging up to $5,000.00 now just to transfer you franchise agreement to a new owner. This is just another way for Howie to make more money off the franchise owners. All owners need to refuse to pay these fees as Howie has no legal reason to substantiate these charges which in most states are illegal. Again if you or any owner you know is having this problem contact me by sending an email to ADMIN with your name, address and phone number to unhappyfranchisee@gmail.com. Also if you have paid such a fee in the past drop an email to ADMIN and he will forward it to me as if we get enough owners to respond we maybe able to get a lawyer to handle cases like this also.
In the last week or so I have heard of several owners receiving letters from lawyers outside of TX. threatening to sue the owners if they don’t pay the franchise and advertising fee. Most of these lawyers were from the state of Illinois. We are in the process of checking these out as in the notices it states that if the owner refuses to pay they will be taken to court in their area. First off this seems to be just another one of the intimidating tactics that Howie is trying to use. All owners should know by now that the venue for any lawsuit is WACO, TX. ( California and Washington being the exception) One of two things is going on here. Either Howie has lost his mind or he has burned so many lawyers in the WACO, Dallas/FT. Worth area that no respectable lawyer will handle his lawsuits. What do you think the reason is?
If you are an overseas franchise and are having problems with CI we would love to hear from you. Send an email to Admin at unhappyfranchisee@gmail.com. We have just installed skype’s so there will be no cost on a phone call. We would like to apologize to all overseas clubs for taking so long to get Skype’s up and running.
Unhappy states:
‘It has been brought to our attention that the transfer fee Curves International has charged in the past is also illegal in most States.’
I’m curious to know which states is it illegal in (and by using most I assume that is 26 or more). The reason I ask this question, is because if you look at the AAFD & AAHOA websites and their standards of fair franchising they both agree that ‘reasonable’ transfer fees should be paid. These are two franchisee advocate associations. It would surprise me if they wouldn’t recommend a $0 transfer fee if most states found it illegal. Now is $5k reasonable, I don’t know. I guess it depends on what the new franchisee gets.
There goes another one: http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2514395
It’s sad to see members left hanging.
Curves International has now reach another low. If a club notifies CI that they intend to close CI is responding by sending them an email that states closing is not an option. YA RIGHT!!!!! What idiot came up with that? Howie of course. What a complete crook. Hey Howie how low will you go? Just another example of a your lack of ethics, integrity, and and moral fiber. And you have the gall to call yourself a born again Christian.
jd
In most states the law does state that the fee must be reasonable. Do you believe that 5,000.00 dollars is reasonable for transferring the franchise agreement from one individual to another. Actually the new owner has to sign a new agreement and it must be signed by Howie and notarized and than filed.. Lets see to have a document notarized is usually free at your bank or at most 5 dollars. I would be willing to bet there is a notary in the Curves offices. Anyway I don’t think any court would consider 5,000 dollars reasonable. DO YOU?
There is more to a transfer than what you are saying. I’m sure that there are some Curves franchisees that hand the next owners the keys and then don’t speak to them (actually I think people on here have complained about that). So, then it’s phone calls to CI to help them with things.
Your previous post was irresponsible, because you stated that transfer fees were illegal and a form of extortion. Imagine another franchisee from a different system reading that?
Actually, pointing this irresponsible post out should make people wonder how reliable you are, or whether you are exaggerating on the other ‘extortion’ plots of ‘Howie’.
jd
first off you need to get your facts straight. I never said the transfer fees are extortion. The way curves international tries to collect closing fees certainly is extortion. It is illegal for curves to try to charge 5000.00 dollars for transfer fees and owners who have paid that amount should demand a refund or take Howie to court. PERIOD. The only person being irresponsible is you trying to stick up for Howie and the way he does business.
jd
Who are you and why are you even on this web site?
tickedoff,
Should be obvious—– he is just another stooge for Howie.
Pingback: CURVES: Should Failed Franchises be Resold? : Unhappy Franchisee
What’s funny is that you think I’m a ‘stooge’ for ‘Howie’. I’ve posted on this website before Sean ever posted this story, so I’ve followed it.
I just find it funny when people come on here, and don’t tell the entire story, because you see it on these sites/forums/blogs all the time. I’m sure that there is plenty that isn’t being said, and that’s why I post.
I don’t think that unhappy has ever stated that 80+% of the plaintiffs in the trial going on right now were ‘counter-sued’ by Curves. There are quite a few settlements going on in that trial too. Makes you wonder if people are confident in their case.
jd,
you have lost us—-where did this thought even come from
“I don’t think that unhappy has ever stated that 80+% of the plaintiffs in the trial going on right now were ‘counter-sued’ by Curves. There are quite a few settlements going on in that trial too. Makes you wonder if people are confident in their case.
and what are you trying to say—of course a few have settled but that doesn’t mean the litigants are not confident in their case, just the contrary it shows that CI is afraid they are going to lose or CI wouldn’t have settled at all.
unhappy, I think that jd has a good point about you needing to be more responsible with your statements. You are not an attorney, correct? Please be clearer about which is your off-the-cuff opinion and which is a verified fact.
For example, you wrote: “In most states the law does state that the fee must be reasonable. Do you believe that 5,000.00 dollars is reasonable for transferring the franchise agreement from one individual to another…. I don’t think any court would consider 5,000 dollars reasonable.”
I searched “average franchise transfer fee” and found this list on Franchise Pundit, posted by an actual attorney. Here are some transfer fees from other franchises:
* Pizza Factory: $12,000
* Quizno’s: $5,000
* Dominic’s of New York: $1,000 + 6% of sales price
* Cheeburger Cheeburger: $12,250
* Pizza Patron: $5,000
* The Dugout: $5,000
* Arby’s: $13,500
* Jerq’zine: $10,000
* Sub Station II: $5,000
* Steak-Out: $18,750
* Herman’s World of Sports: $12,500
* Sears Carpet and Upholstery: $3,000 – $6,000 (depends on market size)
* Stone Mountain Carpet Mill Outlet: $2,500
* Screenz: $5,000
* Sports Clips: $25,000
* Fantastic Sams: $20,000 or 10% of sales price (whichever is greater)
* Hair Cuttery: $5,000 ($0 if franchisee for 5+ years)
It really doesn’t matter what you think is reasonable, does it? What matters is what a court believes and the Curves transfer fee is well within the average range in the industry. Not to mention, those terms are in the FDD submitted and approved in registration states.
Please stop misleading people before they and you get in trouble because of it.
unhappy wrote: “the transfer fee Curves International has charged in the past is also illegal in most States.”
unhappy, could you please post the list of the 26+ states that have deemed the Curves transfer fee illegal? I’m sure everyone would find that most helpful.
Thanks.
New Curves post about the Niagra Falls club closure and CI’s standard reaction:
CURVES: Should Failed Franchises be Resold?
Comments, insights & opinions appreciated.
The stories posted here about Curves are sad. But even sadder is the fact that there are literally thousands more just like them or worse. So many persons enthusiastically bought Curves. Many of us did everything we could to investigate buying a Curves prior to making the leap. However, much of information was simply untrue.
After so many years of owning a Curves; I can’t even list the number of times we were given incorrect information or Howie made false promises.
There was no support, no listening to owner’s problems, suggestions or solutions.
Howie seemed to be working against his own franchisees. But then who has he had a business relationship with that continued as positive?
To Guest on March 31st, 2010 4:51 pm ,
First off I am not a lawyer but I can tell you what is going on with curves and all the different lawsuits that have been filed and ones that are just now forming to be filed. While you and I may differ on what is a reasonable amount for transfer fees, you are dead wrong when you state “What matters is what a court believes”. When and if this get’s to court it will be a jury who decides if it is reasonable or not you or I. Furthermore your statement “Not to mention, those terms are in the FDD submitted and approved in registration states” is totally a lie. While it maybe in the new franchise agreement (I doubt that it is although it could be as I haven’t seen one since they were changed in MAY of 2009) it is defiantly not in the old UFCO(now refereed as FDD) filing or any of the franchise agreements dated before 2009. In fact most of the 10 and 5 year contracts have a 2,000 dollar transfer fee which is still unreasonable.
We have contacted three lawyers in the State of TX all of whom feel that it could be argued successfully in TX court that it is an unreasonable amount to ask for as a transfer fee and if you take the time to call several franchise lawyers who represent franchisee not franchisor’s, I’m sure you will get the same answer. What they will tell you is that it would be extremely costly do so. For one owner it would not be cost effective as you would not win enough back from the suit to pay your legal fees but if enough owners come together with the same complaint and file a group action lawsuit it would be enough as the legal fees would be around 40 percent of the total settlement. That way it would be worth the lawyers time to pursue the cases.
It doesn’t have anything to do with what state you live in or if that state has laws against unreasonable transfer fees as according to your franchise agreement the venue of any court action has to take place in Waco, TX. unless you do business in Washington or California state. Both of those states have strict franchise laws that have been enacted to protect the franchisee. Both states have laws permitting owners to change the venue out of Waco and to their home state. It turns out Washington and California are pretty strict on franchisor’s and both have state law says they cannot charge “exorbitant transfer fees” but must tie the fees to actual costs incurred from the transfer. I know of several owners in Washington State that Curves International dropped the transfer fee altogether once they retained a lawyer to contest the unreasonable fee. If you are so interested you can Google the Washington State Franchise Laws and then read the RCW’s which are the Revised Code of Washington which states just that. If you were a Curves owner you would certainly know that, as there has been many posts from owners who have researched their state franchise laws and have posted their findings on the Yahoo curves owner site.
While there are many states that have laws similar to California and Washington statutes stating that franchisor’s cannot charge “exorbitant transfer fees” but must tie the fees to actual costs incurred from the transfer, I know this because I have talked to many owners from back east who have either done the required research or talked to a lawyer in their home state. But the point being is that it doesn’t matter what your state laws say’s as any court case over this will be fought in Texas unless you are in California or Washington state and there are lawyers in Texas that will take these cases if enough owners can band together to form a group action lawsuit.
HOW LOW CAN HOWIE GO????
Recently owners who notify Curves International that they are going broke and are forced to close receive an e-mail from Windy Law in the resale department stating that closing is not an option. How much gall does that take??? Howie thinks that he can prevent clubs from closing by telling them closing is not an option. Where was he when owners were literally bagging for help? His response was to have fireside chats where he blamed the owners. What a sick joke!!!!!!!!!
unhappy:
You wrote: “the transfer fee Curves International has charged in the past is also illegal in most States.”
Now you state “We have contacted three lawyers in the State of TX all of whom feel that it could be argued successfully in TX court that it is an unreasonable amount to ask for as a transfer fee…”
Three lawyers who FEEL “it could be argued” in TX is a far cry from “illegal in most states,” is it not?
Then you say “there are many states that have laws similar to California and Washington statutes stating that franchisor’s cannot charge ‘exorbitant transfer fees'” Having statutes against exorbitant fees is NOT the same as having found Curves transfer fees illegal, is it?
Could you please either admit that your statement was not true or post the list of the 26+ states that have determined the Curves transfer fee is “illegal”?
As guest states, ‘Three lawyers who FEEL it could be argued’. Pretty much any you could find an attorney to argue any case you want. Hell, Sean had a story about an attorney that was using a science fiction book as part of his complaint (sadly that case hasn’t been dismissed).
I just looked at the Curves UFOC from 2006 on CA’s website it states:
‘The payment to Curves of a transfer fee of in the amount of $5,000….Franchisee agrees that such transfer fee is reasonably required to cover Curves’ expenses related to transfer’.
You say it’s up to the jury. Sure the jury may side with the zees, but odds are it’ll be taken to appeals (where they would probably look at contract law), and it would probably be a case that the IFA would follow closely and probably put some weight behind.
Right now, you state that all they have to do is notarize a piece of paper, which is again an exaggeration of yours.
I think it’s fair to ask you, how much of your own money have you put up? You are more than happy to suggest to people to put their money up for a lawsuit.
As for the settlements, if you are sure that they were favorable to the zees, how about posting what they were. Then again, I’m also the one that told you that the case was moved back, so I’m guessing you aren’t on top of it as you’d like to appear.
Guest ,
I never said that 26 states had determine the 5000 dollar curves transfer fee is illegal. I sated that in most states it is illegal for Howie to charge that unreasonable amount and I stand by that statement. Most states have inacted statues similar to Califorina and Washington State that prohibit franchises from charging exorbitant transsfer fees. If you so interested in which states have inacted similar statues you can look it up yourself. Each curves owner can look up his own states statues by Googeling his or hers state franchise laws but the point is it doesn’t matter what state has statues prohibiting these unreasonable charges and which don’t as it has to be faught in the Waco District Court unless you live in Califoria or Washington. We know for a fact those fees won’t hold up in Califoria or Washington and if enough owners in other states refuse to pay, it will eventually in up in the Texas courts and be settled there. The Texas lawyers wouldn’t be willing to take this on a contengency fee if they weren’t confident of winning the case.
It is apparent that you support Curves international for charging this unreasonalbe fee as well as the closing fee of 10,000 dollars. Why would you surport any company that has used such deceptive practises to take advantage of their franchisee?
Just for your info here is a list of states that have similar statues…MT, WA, ID, CA, NV, AZ, NM, TN, WV, OH, NY, MA, ILL, MN, ND, SD, LA, FL, ME, MD, OR, PA, RI, AR, NC, SC, AND KS. Now does that mean that it has been determined to be illegal for curves to charge that unreasonalbe transfer fee in those states. Of course not because it has never been taken to court yet. When ever an owner complains loud enough or retains a lawyer to contest the charges with Curves Howie has either lowered the fee or waved it completly as he knows if it is ever taken to court he will lose and open up the doors for all of the previous owners who have paid the fee to demand a refund.
‘When ever an owner complains loud enough or retains a lawyer to contest the charges with Curves Howie has either lowered the fee or waved it completly as he knows if it is ever taken to court he will lose and open up the doors for all of the previous owners who have paid the fee to demand a refund.’
Have you ever thought that maybe Curves looks at it as a business situation, and that $10k in legal fees is more than the $5k in transfer fees? Probably not, you seem to be more interested in the attorney making a lot of money.
Well jd you maybe right as Howie certainly has made money his god. You know you and Howie seem to be two peas in a pod.
It’s clear than jd and guest don’t need any help here, but what the hell.
“It is apparent that you support Curves international for charging this unreasonalbe fee as well as the closing fee of 10,000 dollars. Why would you surport any company that has used such deceptive practises to take advantage of their franchisee?”
What’s apparent, is that he or she and a lot of other people don’t agree with YOU and it’s REALLY apparent that that pisses you off. So you call everyone who disagrees with you names or make baseless assertions that they must be working for Curves. Disagreeing with your nonsense doesn’t mean they support CI, just that they think YOU are wrong. It doesn’t mean that they are anti-franchisee or pro-franchisor, just that they think YOU are less than truthful, prone to exaggeration, aren’t fully aware of the law, current settlements in similar cases, or even the status of your own case. And you wonder why people call YOUR judgment and opinions into question? You can’t even do math!
“I never said that 26 states had determine the 5000 dollar curves transfer fee is illegal.“
Actually, that is pretty much EXACTLY what you said:
When you said “It has been brought to our attention that the transfer fee Curves International has charged in the past is also illegal in most States.” and “All owners need to refuse to pay these fees as Howie has no legal reason to substantiate these charges which in most states are illegal.” YOU then clarified your position and again (falsely) claimed it was “illegal” “It is illegal for curves to try to charge 5000.00 dollars for transfer fees…”
Simple math is not your forte so I’ll help you out. We have 50 states (look it up) and for you to state that it is “illegal in MOST states.” means that AT LEAST 26 (a majority) have found that to be the case. What goes on in one state and is considered “unreasonable” there does not make something “illegal” anywhere else. Even in states with “similar statues”. Yet despite the overwhelming evidence that someone pulled up on this exact issue from the franchise pundit site showing that the fee is in fact “reasonable” based on the industry standards and what other franchisee charge, you are still contending that this fee is illegal “in MOST states”.
To bolster your civil complaint you regularly state opinion as fact and then based on those fallacious “facts” make statements as to what is and is not “legal”. You’ve even made criminal accusations here, you might want to do a search for internet libel laws. It would be interesting to see how much you like the legal system when you are on the receiving end. So “apparently” when jd and others say that maybe people shouldn’t take YOUR word as gospel and should question your knowledge and motives, they might have a point.
“the transfer fee Curves International has charged in the past is also illegal in most States.” unhappy on March 28th, 2010 9:42 pm
“It is illegal for curves to try to charge 5000.00 dollars for transfer fees…” unhappy on March 31st, 2010 11:44 am
“I never said that 26 states had determine the 5000 dollar curves transfer fee is illegal.” unhappy on April 1st, 2010 10:21 am
unhappy:
I agree with “someone who can count on” when he/she says you “regularly state opinion as fact and then based on those fallacious “facts” make statements as to what is and is not ‘legal’. ”
I think you mean well but people listening to you should do so with a huge grain of salt and definitely verify your assertions by consulting an actual attorney rather than a blog commenter who obviously has a personal grudge.
“someone” also makes a good point about libel laws. For your own sake, you should read up on it. You are much more liable (in my humble opinion) if you make it clear that what you post is just your opinion.
“If the person makes a statement of opinion as opposed to fact, the statement may not support a cause of action for defamation.”
http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/defamation.html
“Courts look at whether a reasonable reader or listener could understand the statement as asserting a statement of verifiable fact.”
http://www.chillingeffects.org/defamation/faq.cgi#QID715
Good time for you to post a disclaimer. hint hint.
Here’s a point that hasn’t been brought up about transfer fees, I’m sure most of these people that paid the transfer fee probably had it included in their sales prices and passed it along to the new buyer. Wouldn’t that be something to bring up in front of the jury? Maybe then the person that bought the store could then sue the seller for inflating their sales price, since it included ‘unreasonable fees’.
jd,
I hope your point was meant to be laughable and a little sarcastic as if not your one sick puppy to come up with that one. Although I would expect it out of Howie if he was in the shoe of the owners. I guess it’s yours and Howe’s philosophy to make a buck anyway you can right, jd? Where is your compassion for all the owners jd who have lost nearly if not all of everything they owned because of the ( oh better make it in my opinion ) dishonest, unethical, immoral, lack of integrity, unchristian like and quite possibly illegal business tactics that Howie has used and the way he has mismanaged the franchisee. But you do touch a button for most respectable owners past and present, as some clubs (I have not idea how many) are guilty of overstating the actual numbers of active members to inflate the sales price. Actually some owners have been sued over that and rightfully so but Howie has some responsibility for that deception as well. Before the clubs could be sold to the new owner the previous owner had to send in a signed statement as stated in the franchise agreement giving the total active membership as well as the selling price for the club as per franchise agreement. It would have been very easy to mislead the new owner but it is inconceivable that Howie didn’t know about the fraudulent amount of active members being used to base the sales price on considering that at the end of each month each franchise had to send financial reports including a projection sheet. In fact Howie certainly knew what was going on as he himself brought it up on several different occasions during speeches at convention and regional meetings. I do not know of any circumstance where Howie brought this information out to the buyer or prevented a sale. I know jd we have gone over this with you before and you use the excuse that the seller would have than sued Howie. Who knows maybe sellers would have tried to sue but I for one believe that Howie had a moral obligation to put a stop to this practice once he was aware it was going on. Simply put, to me, it shows a callous disregard for integrity, immoral, unethical and defiantly not Christian like. As you well know Howie sold franchises by advertising that Curves was a Christian run business based on Christian principles.
If you take the time to read all the other examples of business tactics that were used on owners such as the 10,000 dollar closing fee, ( not in any franchise agreement before 2009) the so called “mutual release” , the threatening letters of termination being sent to 24/7 clubs ( again nothing in the contract ) the lack of any support, the over population of clubs in metro areas, selling territories under 1500 in population which could have never supported a club in the first place, lack of advertising, underestimating the actual costs of running a franchise and overestimating the profit potential just to name a few you should understand why so many owners are up in arms, filling lawsuits to recover a portion of their losses. Your totally off base and have no right to blame the owners for their business failing. You can point out that the economy sucks, that the owners didn’t do due diligence, and that owners are always trying to blame someone else for their own failure but unless and until you are an owner your explanation is worthless and false and only meant to stir up and piss off owners as you don’t have any perception as to how Howie has mismanaged this franchise. The number of lawsuits being filed against Howie alone should be a good indication to anyone ever remotely considering buying a Curves franchise to walk, no run as fast as you can in the other direction.
Good laugh for a Sat morning:
‘ Your totally off base and have no right to blame the owners for their business failing.’
Okay 100% of the blame of not bringing in new members, keeping old members, keeping costs down, overpaying for a club bought, etc. should be blamed on the franchisor. Good level headed thinking there.
I’ve noticed that a lot of franchisees that failed, bring up the ‘christianity’ claim (Cuppy’s, Curves, YTB in the MLM industry but thought they would go to franchising). I’m starting to think that maybe it’s a target market out there because maybe people are too gullible.
You list several reasons that clubs failed because of CI’s actions:
“over population of clubs in metro areas”
“ling territories under 1500 in population which could have never supported a club in the first place”
“lack of advertising”
“underestimating the actual costs of running a franchise and overestimating the profit potential”
So, which of these is what caused YOUR clubs to fail?
Oversaturation? It says your clubs were in Las Vegas, how many other clubs were there? A city that size could easily support 2 dozen.
Territory population? That couldn’t have been an issue in Las Vegas. You say yourself that your area was greater than 30,000
Advertising? How much local advertising did YOU do? Doesn’t Curves recommend you spend at least $500 a month in addition to the $300 or so a month you send them?
Monthly expenses? You didn’t know how much rent, electric, payroll, etc… were going to cost you? Did they rent your properties or did you? It’s kind of hard to follow as you jump around quite a bit, but it looks like you owned 1 club that you sold in 2001 (taking no profit from the sale I’m sure), then bought 2 more in 2001, then another 2 in 2002 for a total of 5 different locations. How many locations does it take to get a feel for what YOUR expensive will be?
Or was it that they just weren’t “Christian enough” to you?
Curves was and still is advertised as a Christian company but Gary and Diane are not Christian by any sense of the word. I have watched this company continue on a downward sprial for years as a result of the management under the direction of the ego maniac Gary Heavin. The closing fee that CI is trying to intimidate owners into paying is a form of extortion as well as the excessive fees for moving a club, transfering ownership, combining territories, ect ect.ect. and the list is growing bigger day by day As owners many of us have tried to get things to change to help the owners survive and have even worked through the CFA to no avail. Now the CFA belittles owners by sending out a condesending letter about the 24/7 clubs that are being sent termination letters by CI. Many owners refuse to even join the CFA and its easy to understand why as it has done nothing to help owners. It appears that the downward spiral of Curves will continue until it no longer exists. Unfortunatly that maybe in the very near future.
Wondering ,
I take it your post is directed at me, but you must not have read the above story,
CURVES: Robert Lay’s Story, as I explain in detail what our problems were with CI all of which pertain to the basis for the individual lawsuit that we have filed against CI.
The lists of reasons you copied and posted:………
“You list several reasons that clubs failed because of CI’s actions:
“over population of clubs in metro areas”
“ling territories under 1500 in population which could have never supported a club in the first place”
“lack of advertising”
“underestimating the actual costs of running a franchise and overestimating the profit potential” …………………
are what the basis of the group action lawsuit filed by the Zarco law firm, out of Miami FL.is based on that has over 250 litigants and will be going to court (not counting any more delays) in August. Depending on the outcome of this trail there are over 1500 owners who want to be included in the “second wave”.
Since it appears you don’t own a franchise you need to read all the posts to follow why and what the owners blame for their business failures which all have a common theme. Instead it would appear that you with having no direct knowledge of how Curves International operates wants to blame the owners for their demise. Several old sayings come to mind such as “put your money where your mouth is or walk a mile in the owners shoes and than come back to this board and post your findings. If you want to try to argue that CI is such a great company buy one. There are plenty for sale for less than 5,000 dollars which is less than you will pay to have it transferred into your name. You would than have the same impressions and feelings that 95 percent of the curves franchise owners have and which many of the owners have expressed in the above posts on this board.
Has anyone seen Curves bars or Curves cereal in their local grocery store lately? I haven’t. Have Curves food products vanished like most Curves clubs have?
It turns out that Curves cereal turns black people white. Or vice versa. That could be affecting sales. :)
Check out #2 at: http://www.11points.com/Misc/11_Photos_Where_Black_People_Were_Awkwardly_Photoshopped_In_or_Out
The Curves bars is a prime example of how Howie makes everything into a revenue stream for CI instead of the franchises. When the curves bars where first introduced they were sold exclusively in the clubs and were a great success. You could buy them for 50 cents and sell them for a buck. You couldn’t keep them on the shelf as the members loved them. With in six months Howie was selling them to discount stores for less than franchise owners could buy them. The clubs were forced in to not selling them as the clubs could not compete with the discount stores. Same thing with the cereal. Now both products are gone from the stores and are discontinued.
“If you want to try to argue that CI is such a great company”
Where did I say that CI was “a great company”? I asked which of those reasons that YOU listed were why YOUR clubs failed.
You replied with “The lists of reasons you copied and posted:……… are what the basis of the group action lawsuit”
Aren’t you the primary litigant? If THAT is “the basis” (YOUR words) of YOUR lawsuit and I couldn’t see how ANY of them applied to you, I’ll ask you again, which of those were the reasons YOUR clubs closed?
Wondering
I know you can read but it appears you have a problem with comprehension and your writing skills need some work also. (ex.”How many locations does it take to get a feel for what YOUR expensive will be?” Do you mean expenses?) If I didn’t know better I would think you were darn right mad with all the unnecessary letters capitalized.
I have never stated that I was a primary litigant in the class action law suit but I as well as 99% of the owners all have those four common threads found in the group action lawsuit. I am not a part of the first wave of over 250 owners who have filed a group action law suit that goes to court in August. but I am in the second wave along with over 1500 owners who are yet to file depending on the outcome of the first trail.
I also have filed an individual lawsuit against CI and Gary Heavin. But my reasons for our individual lawsuit is not based on those arguments. We were denied the rights provided for in our contract with Curves when we were supposedly terminated (all three clubs yet franchise and advertising fee were still deducted from out checking account) and one of our franchises was resold with out our permission or notice. We were further damaged when we bought and paid for Curves smart, waited for three months for the delivery and then told that we were being refused curves smart thus preventing us to be competitive with neighboring clubs. There is also several instances where our contact with Curves was violated by neighboring clubs advertising in our territory as well as hiring our trained staff and CI refused to take any action.
To Don by the sea
Excuse me, but aren’t you on one of the committees of the CFA? And you are knocking them……Which they should be “knocked”, but what the heck are you doing to get things changed? Once you got elected again you acted just like the rest of them.
Hey hold on undecided, I don’t think the person who posted on Apr 3rd is the Don who you are referring too. I pretty sure I know the person who you are referring to who goes by a similar name (but not the same) on a different Curves site that just recently changed it’s site’s name. That is the yahoo group site for curves owners and that person named Don is an elected official of the CFA as well as the past (and in all likelihood still ) owner/moderator of the Yahoo group site. I don’t believe that this post was written by him for several reasons.
But you bring up an interesting point about the CFA. Why do you feel that the CFA should be “knocked” and how has the Don you are referring to who was just elected last summer to the CFA changed and “acted just like the rest of them”. What do you mean by that? Also as an (ex)owner what do you feel about the up coming CFA elections? Should owners join so they can get a vote or is not worth the 50 dollars that it costs to join?
“I have never stated that I was a primary litigant in the class action law suit but I as well as 99% of the owners all have those four common threads found in the group action lawsuit. I am not a part of the first wave of over 250 owners who have filed a group action law suit that goes to court in August. but I am in the second wave along with over 1500 owners who are yet to file depending on the outcome of the first trail.”
What a great man you must be to have gotten all this business for the lawyers when you don’t even have a financial stake in the case! Someone, please call the Nobel committee. Hey hold on, you didn’t actually say you don’t have a financial interest in the case. Did you get any sort of finder’s fee? Will you get a percentage if successful?
Even if you didn’t, it looks like you got 250 other people to pay the entire cost of the “first wave” lawsuit and then you will step in on the “second wave” for free? Or if the first one fails, you can just walk away having paid nothing to the lawyers out of your own pocket? Nicely done sir.
ATTENTION ALL PRESENT AN PAST CURVES OWNERS. YOU MUST CHECK THIS OUT
Federal Judge Likens Franchising as Business to “Modified Ponzi Scheme” and Holds that Franchisor is Employer of Massachusetts Franchisees
excerpt:
“In an opinion issued on March 23, 2010, in Awuah v. Coverall North America, Inc., the Honorable William G. Young, a federal judge in Boston, held that a commercial cleaning franchisor was the “employer” of its Massachusetts franchisees and had violated the Massachusetts Independent Contractor Act by “misclassifying” the franchisees as “independent contractors.” Civil Action No. 07-10287-WGY. Perhaps even more disturbing to franchisors, however, is Judge Young’s observation, in response to the franchisor’s argument that franchising is a business distinct from the business conducted by its franchisees, that “[d]escribing franchising as a business in itself, as Coverall seeks to do, sounds vaguely like a description for a modified Ponzi scheme—a company that does not earn money from the sale of goods and services, but from taking in more money from unwitting franchisees to make payments to previous franchisees.” (Slip op. at 8.)”
[ed. note: we can’t post the entire text of an article without permission, only an excerpt and link to the original source. Thanks.]
When I sent a letter to the BBB of Waco Tx, I got back a message from them stating that they considered my situation an employer/employee dispute and I should pursue it as such.