CURVES: Robert Lay’s Story
The American dream of owning your own successful business seems to be going up in smoke for a lot of the Curves Franchise owners. The story you are about to read may seem like a Steven King horror novel but it is a real story that has happened to my wife and I. To all of the past, present and future owners of a Curves franchise please take the time to read the whole story as at the end we explain what we plan to do and how you as an ex or present owner may want to get involved.
My wife and I had owned and operated our own business for over 20 years and had been very successful at doing so. While we were making a great income from our business there was something missing in our life. Neither us felt that we were contributing to society but just taking and we decided to make a major change in our life. That was when we heard about Curves for Women. It was a new franchise that only had 300 or so clubs and for the first time in years we both became excited at the prospect of actually helping people reach their goals. We bought our first club in 1997 located in a city of thirty thousand. From the first day it opened it was more successful than our wildest dreams. Not only were we making excellent money but the personal rewards helping people better their lives was a truly rewarding feeling. I can still remember as if it was yesterday the first time a Dr. of one of our members came in to check out what we were doing as he couldn’t believe the ch
anges his patient had gone through. She had gotten off her high blood medication and had lost over 40 pounds in 4 months. It was truly amazing and over the years we have seen it happen numerous times over and over.
We sold our first club in 2001 and bought two more franchises. My wife became a mentor for Curves International around this time and I was helping to sell franchise for Curves International as so many of are members wanted to own a club. It was at this time that we started to see problems arising with Curves International but we attributed it to the fast growth that Curves was going through. In 2002 we bought two more franchises but this time they were in what was called a metro-area instead of city under thirty thousand in population.
The first problem we encountered with Curves International was in early 2003. Curves sold a franchise that was a corridor of land between one of our franchise’s and the next city 8 miles from our southern boarder. It was obvious to us that the territory didn’t have the necessary population to support a facility and that Curves International was selling any location just out of greed and the fact that there were so many people who wanted a franchise. The people who bought that franchise tried to open up on our border but it had always been an unwritten but followed rule of Curves International that you open in the middle of your territory so that disputes between owners over stealing members from your territory didn’t arise. We immediately filed a complaint with Curves International and they stopped the new owner from opening at that location. Unfortunately for the new owners there were no other commercial locations between the two cities so they were forced into selling that franchise back to Curves International for a loss.
It was also at this time that Curves International started to change personnel. The employee’s who we had a personal relationship with that had started Curves International with Gary Heavin were leaving the company at an alarming rate. Seven employees that were the top management of Curves left or were forced out because of Gary Heavin’s greed. They ended up filling a law suit against Curves which was later settled out of court. It was at this time that Diane Heavin became involved with Curves and a whole new history was being written about how Curves was started. The original Curves member guide which was written by Gary Heavin and June Manley was taken off the market and the new Curves book authored by of course Gary Heavin was on the top 10 of the Times best seller list.. To make sure it was on the Times best seller list all the clubs had to order at least on case. That is when we as owners realized Heavin was a manipulator and not the born again Christian he portrayed to be. It was also at this time that the price to buy a franchise more than doubled in price. This came as quite a surprise as Heavin had always maintained that he would never ever increase his franchise price and he even swore on the bible in front of a group at club camp that he would never break his word on that. Well as we all know he didn’t keep that promise for long, which just shows his greed.
At this point my wife and I became quite concerned and even considered selling our business but other problems arose concerning Curves International that demanded our full attention. In 2004 another Curves location located on our boarder of one of our metro-areas hired two of our employees and stole around 15 members from our club. Both employees had signed the anti covenant not to compete and in our state those agreements are strictly enforced by the courts. We considered going to court but since it was another Curves facility we decided to file a complaint with Curves International. And to let them handle it. What a mistake that was as they did nothing. We transferred the members files but refused to transfer the money for the members dues until such time that Curves International responded to our complaint. We were told by the area director, which was a new position at Curves International, that we were trouble makers and he refused to send any of are clubs the members appreciation bags. Shortly thereafter Curves International resold the corridor of land that had been sold back to them at a loss from the previous owners and they allowed the new owners to open up in nearly the same location that they had refuse the previous owners only a year and a half before. The new owners advertised in our area and ended up getting 10 or 11 members to transfer to their club. Again we held their monthly dues but did transfer the members files. We immediately filed a complaint but again got the same response nothing. It didn’t take long for most of the members who transferred to come back to our club as the other location was small and in a very run down area and to this day that club has not shown a profit and has been sold numerous times over the years for little to nothing.
Then in 2005 the real problems with Curves International started that we are still contending with today. In one of our metro-areas a competitor by the name of Ladies Workout Express opened up right across the street from our location. Unknown to us they had hired our manager and one other employee from that location and when the employee’s left they had stolen off our computer our member files. They ended up stealing over two thirds of our membership with in a week. The employees had signed the covenant not to compete so we immediately hired a lawyer and prepared for a lawsuit. As I stated before in our state that agreement is strictly enforced but it took four months to get it into court. During this time that location was losing so much money that we decided to move the location next to our other territory so that both clubs could stay open. We sent in the required change of location form to Curves International but never heard anything back from them so we went ahead and relocated in late 05. The owners of the Ladies Workout Express eventually went broke because of the lawsuit and the fact that they would end up owing us monetary damages. They filed for bankruptcy to prevent us from collecting any monetary awards in Dec 05 but we did have the satisfaction knowing that we did what was right
In early 06 we were informed by Curves International that because we abandon that location they were terminating all of our franchise agreements. We immediately requested mediation for all of our clubs which is authorized by our franchise agreements with Curves International. We never heard back from them so we hired a lawyer in Waco, TX to represent us. He proceeded to send them a letter requesting the same mediation process and they did respond to him. They sent him letter stating that it was premature to go through the mediation process at that time as they were in the process of researching our reason for moving. Curves International continued to debit our account for the franchise and advertising fees for all the other clubs we owned but stopped talking the fees for the one territory that they stated we abandoned. The lawyer had us send Curves International a check for the fees and a new authorization form for them to deduct it from our account. Neither our lawyer or ourselves ever heard anything back from Curves International so we all assumed that things were back to normal.
In the spring of 07 we made the decision to start selling off all of our clubs and to completely retire. It didn’t take me long to sell the club we owned that wasn’t in a metro-area and I agreed to stay with the new owner’s to help train them how to run the business. We sent all the documentation into Curves International and the sale was completed by January 08. That freed my wife and I up to concentrate on our metro-area clubs and to get them ready for sale. In Feb of 08 we heard that a Curves club was opening in one of our territories within a mile of our current club. We could not understand how Curves International could do such a thing. We again filed a complaint by phone and e-mail to Curves International and several weeks later we were informed by e-mail that they didn’t know what we were talking about. We were told we didn’t own any franchises and hadn’t since we were terminated in 05. That came as quite a shock to my wife and I as our franchise and advertising fee’s had been deducted all along from our checking account and we had just recently sold a club that they were telling us we never owned. We had a local lawyer send a letter to the new owners explaining the situation and that we would be seeking legal recourse against Curves International and depending on the outcome they were opening themselves up to a potential lawsuit. During this time we had bought and paid in full for the Smart Equipment for Curves International and were waiting for the installation which was scheduled for the June 24th. On June 20th , a Friday we received a phone message telling us that the Curves Smart Installation was canceled and that we had to call Curves legal for an explanation. We left messages both e-mail and phone every 30 minutes on Monday June 23rd and finally late in the afternoon we received an e-mail stating that one of there lawyers would be in touch with us before the end of the day, They never sent an e-mail or a phone call as was promised but by mid day the next day they did respond by e-mail. It stated because of the problems with the members transfers, the fact that we abandoned a franchise, and that we had interfered with the opening of the new franchise located in our territory we weren’t approved for the Curves Smart. Yet in late May they had sent all the promotional ad material for the Curves Smart and of course we had gone to a considerable amount of expense for training the employees, advertising and promotion of the Curves Smart equipment. It was at this point that my wife and I decided that drastic action had to be taken against Heavin and Curves International.
While we still love the concept of Curves we feel that because of the deceptive and we believe fraudulent business practices that Heavin has allowed under his management Curves will eventually end up in the toilet so to speak. After spending many hours on the internet we have found that there are many lawsuits against this man and his company. Just read some of the post’s that are on franchisepick.com from owners concerning the new ten thousand fee if your club goes under and closes to the vitamins that were sold in Feb and March by Ideas in Action at a discount to owners without telling them that they would expire at the end of May. The lack of support and communication from Curves International that all of us owners are going through is intolerable. It is impossible for an owner to get through to them on the phone and good luck if you expect a call back in a timely manor. The fact that we as owners pay a lot of money for our advertising fees and have no accounting of where it is spent and a quite frankly we never see many ads in our area.
I have taken the time to do the necessary research to find several good lawyers who handle franchise law who are more than willing to help Curves owners who are having similar problems with Curves. I for one am going to go after Curves International and Gary Heavin in a court of law. These are not class action but group action lawsuit and if you don’t understand the difference contact me and I will explain it to you. There have been over 200 such lawsuit filed against Curves in the last several years and while some have been settled in mediation others are in the process of going to litigation. If you are a past or present Curves owner who has experienced these problems and want satisfaction whether it be monetary or revenge please contact me. We have several options that we can go and I for one am positive we will win as the other lawsuits have been successful so far and have set a precedent for ours. It is time for the owners of Curves franchises either past or present to stand up together and put a stop to Heavins’s ramped destruction of peoples lives just for monetary greed.
Thanks for reading our post and God Bless you all.
ARE YOU AN CURVES FRANCHISE OWNER OR FORMER CURVES FRANCHISEE?
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CURVES FRANCHISE OPPORTUNITY?
PLEASE SHARE A COMMENT BELOW.
Try to keep a 260-member club afloat. I DARE you. I DOUBLE DOG DARE you.
Check out these recent McCord listings for Florida Curves . . .
Just Reduced! Curves of Pembroke Pines, FL
WOW! Great Location! 360+ members! Large territory!
Asking price? $29,900. Less than that of a new Curves franchise, and with “350+ members” to boot.
Reduced! The only Curves in busy Clearwater, FL
Priced to sell! Great Location with Heavy Traffic! You have the best of two worlds, with the club being close to the beach and city! Well maintained and fully equiped with everything Curves has to offer! Loyal staff and members! Curves SMART!
Asking price? $15,900. I guess we know now why it’s the only Curves in busy Clearwater. All the others went belly-up.
And the saddest of all. . .
REDUCED!!! Dr. Phillips, Florida
Business Stability with High Income! Prosperous Curves franchise in an affluent neighborhood with a high opportunity for growth!
Asking price? A paltry $5,000. So much for “business stability and high income!” If you’re making so much, why sell for so little?
The sadest listing is the one for $500.00….giving it away and still no takers…
still waiting for the other shoe to drop!…check out the other site also..under yahoo groups.. curves owners and managers…Sh** is gonna hit the fan soon..
Here are a few more priced less than their equipment alone is worth. How much $$$ do you all think a new owner who buys one of these might lose by the time all’s said & done?
$500.00 Hope Mills/Grays Creek NC
$2,500.00 League City East/South Shore
$4,000.00 Randolph, MA
$9,500.00 Raynham/Taunton, MA
$9,900.00 Loganville GA
$9,995.00 San Antonio TX
$10,000.00 Temple TX
$10,000.00 Sheboygan Falls, WI
$10,000 Reading, PA
$10,000.00 Lynden WA
$10,000.00 Marianna FL
$10,000.00 Havre de Grace MD
What I don’t understand is what is happening to all of the equipment?
Couldn’t you hang onto it for a year and then reopen as an independent? Without the fees you would at least have a chance of a profit.
Wiped said: “Try to keep a 260-member club afloat. I DARE you. I DOUBLE DOG DARE you.”
Wow, is that how YOU got into the business? On a bet? Do you regularly make business decisions on a dare? Before I decide though, I’d need to know, would I have to keep the 7 employees? Would I have to keep it (estimating here from what most Curves seem to be doing) in a location that is 2 to 4 times the needed size paying 10 times the rent? (The NATIONAL commercial real estate market is in free fall folks, renegotiate your leases!) Going by the brilliant strategies I’ve seen here, the list is nearly endless. So basically, what I’d need to know before accepting your “DOUBLE DOG DARE” is would I have to run it like you guys do? Or do I get to run it like an actual business?
Judy said: “Without the fees you would at least have a chance of a profit.”
Quit kidding yourself. With Curves minimum monthly fees at just 95 and 195, if you think you can turn an unprofitable business around simply by eliminating those fees, you are sadly, but not surprisingly, mistaken. Somewhere else on this site a PACE distributor tried the argument to convince people if they dropped those gigantic franchise fees (by buying HIS equipment) they’d be profitable. What a load. If you cannot control your rent and payroll you are finished. Plus, most re-sales overpaid and THAT loan payment and mismanagement is what makes them unprofitable.
Here you go, here’s that advertisement “article” for the PACE guy. There is actually some pretty healthy debate and intelligence in the first half dozen or so responses in January. Then in Feb to the present, unhappy and the PACE guy get on a mutual admiration rant and it degenerates into the norm.
http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/curves-can-indie-clubs-thrive-where-curves-failed/
Unless you work every shift and hire NO help and don’t give away free T-shirts and other prizes, you will not survive long with a 260- member club, especially in Newark, NJ. Most owners need 400 members to break even or make a small profit.
But go for it, Guest. You sound so confident. Put your money where your mouth is and buy that Orlando Dr. Phillips club, with its 350 members, for $5,000. We sold a club with 300 members at the time of the contract signing for more than $100,000 just three years ago. THIS Orlando club is a bargain for only $5K .
Show us how we could have been successful. We’ll be waiting for your sage advice.
Guest will be much better off with the Hope Mills NC Curves location. The asking price is $500.00, but they usually price high so there’s room for negotiation. I bet with Guest’s business acumen he can get it for $250… $350 tops.
I’m sure the rent is reasonable in Hope Mills, NC and at I doubt the resale is “overpriced” at $350. With your superior business mind, Guest, I think you could make a killing turning around these bargain Curves run down by lesser franchisees than yourself. Go for it!
Wait, it looks like the consensus here was that anyone who sold their club was ripping the buyer off and that CI should have stopped them! Isn’t that part of the basis of one of these law suits?
But more importantly, three years ago you sold a club for “more than $100,000”. Then, less than a year and a half after selling that club to (as unhappy refers to them) some “SUCKER” for “more than $100,000”, you posted here in Jan ‘09 as being “Wipedout” (you may have been using that handle elsewhere even before that). Hmmmm. Looks like you should have sold more than the one club, huh? No, no, I’m sure you knew what you were doing.
Some folks are like the people who invested poorly in the stock market. A business is an investment. If you are not treating it as such, you shouldn’t be in business. If you are going to take risks, you have to be willing to accept the responsibility when those investments fail (especially when they fail because you didn’t manage your portfolio correctly). “2 years ago my club/portfolio was worth $100,000. Today it’s worth nothing.” Who’s fault is that? If you INVEST in something and then don’t sell at the right time, you may have made a great investment, but you failed to sell. You sold one of your clubs for $100,000, I guess you should have dumped all your stock in Curves back then too!
And sure, I’ll zip right down there and snap up that FL club. Please. Stop being ridiculous and learn something for a change. I’ve been driving a car for 40 years. I’ve seen plenty of accidents in my time. I don’t have to be involved in the accident to understand what that person did wrong. Likewise, I have been running businesses for over 30 years, I don’t have to mismanage your business to see what you are doing wrong. Also, you make the assumption that I never owned a Curves or similar business.
But if you are actually willing to learn (and sadly, it doesn’t really look like many really are, but for the few that are)… at 260 members, between dues, new sales, product sales, etc… should be bringing in AT LEAST $10,000/month. Speaking of product sales, NEVER give away anything that does not lead to another LARGER sale. Give them a DISCOUNT on something, not the something! Outside of Curves I’d NEVER seen that. It’s utter nonsense! Now, to the biggies: rent and payroll. A quick search shows that there are PLENTY of commercial spaces going for $1 a Sq/ft or LESS in the Newark area. So even if you are tied into a lease, renegotiate. 260 members should be in no more than 1300-1400 Sq/ft space. Hours listed were pretty good (that’s the max I’d recommend, unless you’re going with the 24/7 system). As I said, 3 staff – 1 full time and 2 part time. Notice how I didn’t say “full time manager”. Even if you are not in the club daily, YOU are the manager and so long as you do your job, you just need staff that does THEIR job too. I’m assuming for this exercise that you are NOT working the club, if you are, eliminate either the full timer or BOTH part timers. Always only 1 on at that early morning hour/hour and half and the last hour. Full time covers 8 of the 10 weekday shifts. 2 staff on on Monday and Wednesday (typical busy gym days), 1 part time on each of the 2 remaining uncovered weekday shifts and rotate Saturdays. Near and above double digit unemployment means that you can get GREAT help at a bargain! Is that the end? No, of course not, but that’s your two most costly expenses PROPERLY sorted out and I didn’t have to actually drive a car into a tree to do it! The question is though, are you willing to do what needs to be done? Are you capable of making the cuts that are needed and renegotiate when you have to? Are you a charity or are you done overpaying help? Are you done paying twice the going rate for rent? Do you let people bounce payments to you and NOT collect from them? Are you scared of the competition or are they scared of YOU? Times are tough for EVERYONE, myself included, so quit whining and blaming everyone else and sack up already. That, or you too will be “Wipedout”.
Now, before you claim I’m some Curves plant and throw the baby out with the bathwater, think about it. From what you all have written here, it doesn’t look like anyone there has much more business sense than you, so I couldn’t possibly be with them!
NC, there you go. At least you’re getting closer. However, I still have no desire to have a business three states away. See if you can find me something on the coast and maybe I’ll think about it. At least then I could make it a working weekend holiday!
Also, all you sharp business minds are forgetting that these re-sales are going to be tied to taking over crazy stupid leases as a condition of the sale. A $500 cost to take over a $5,000+/month lease may sound like a great idea to you, but then again, many of you thought it was a good idea to pay $150,000 to take over a $200,000+ worth of lease liability – and THANK the seller for the “opportunity” on top of it!
Wipedout.
Why waste your time replying to guest when it is obvious she, he or it, doesn’t know her ass from a hole in the ground. Her points are not valid, she has never owned a Curves and knows nothing about running a business much less a curves. If curves was such a good business do you really think that the State of California would have declared that the FDD was fraudulent and stop all sales of new and resales of curves franchises? Of course not and any one who has owned a Curves knows how dishonest, unethical , immoral and anti-christian Howie is and continues to be. !00 clubs a month are closing and by the first of the year this company will be bankrupt!!!! If not before……………………
Unhappy wrote “Why waste your time replying to guest when it is obvious she, he or it, doesn’t know her ass from a hole in the ground. Her points are not valid…”
That’s right! Controlling your payroll, reducing your rent, NOT giving away free stuff that doesn’t lead to a larger sale – this is NOT sound advice. Listen to unhappy who, by his own admission FAILED to keep his own business alive. I’m sure he’ll help YOU stay in business though. Yep, that sounds like a good plan to me. Reading his rants, it looks like he’s just pissed that he couldn’t unload his last two clubs to some “sucker” like he did before. All this, despite his vast knowledge and abilities!
Don’t you people get it yet? His “business” now is tied to YOUR failure. The more YOU fail, the more business his lawyers get. It’s awe inspiring!
But please tell us, how many law suits have you actually WON against Curves, unhappy? I’m not talking motions, but actual cases. Come on now, you don’t even need your fingers to count so this should be easy. And all those wins (0), how much has it cost OTHER owners? Hasn’t cost you anything though, right? You’ve already said before that YOU aren’t in the first round of law suits – you know, the round that COST owners up front money. You’re waiting for the SECOND round, the one which will go forward ONLY if the first one is won.
Maybe it’s me, but reading what you’ve written, it looks like the only thing you’ve been successful at, is being a failure. That and convincing yourself that you being a failure is not your fault. Seems like you’ve had more success as a failed businessman (and I’d guess earned more in, what do they call them?? “finder’s fees”? from lawyers?) than you probably did when running your business into the ground. Well done.
But let’s take a moment to listen to unhappy from a couple of weeks back: “Thank you for addressing and clarifying the guidelines of the posts on this site. It should put a stop to the Ad Hominid attacks that several posters continue to post.”
First, I’m going to assume that you didn’t actually mean “advertising attacks against primates” (“Ad Hominid attack”???) and actually meant to say that there should not be any arguments based solely on irrelevant facts or opinions about the author (argumentum ad hominem). I find you praising that idea to be pretty close to the definition of irony. It is in fact YOU who simply dismisses the content of anyone’s post who does not agree with you SIMPLY because they do not agree with you and justify this with false and irrelevant character assassinations (and worse, character attacks on people you don’t even know!) never to respond to the actual content.
Just to clarify though, what you and “admin” are referring to as ad hominem attacks are not in and of themselves improper forms of debate. When a person’s opinions, motives, conduct, etc… DO relate to the issue and ARE relevant reasons not to believe their arguments, they ARE legitimate points in an argument. So, when someone points out that you don’t even know the status of these cases you point to, that you’ve misquoted other articles to fit your argument, that you’ve never actually won a case against Curves, that you’ve not personally paid to join the lawsuit you think everyone else should join, that you will financially benefit from THEM doing so, that you attack the person instead of the argument, that you regularly claim one small thing to mean an entirely different thing (for example, your statement about what is going on in CA has nothing to do with anything OTHER than late filing of paperwork and NOT an indictment of the franchise system as a whole – like you would have readers believe), that you state opinion as fact and routinely make up numbers that you can not and will not back up, that whenever anyone points any or all of this out that you say they should be ignored because they are a plant or “he, she, it” is “immoral, unethical, dishonest, anti-Christian” (just like “Howie”), etc… these seem to YOU to be irrelevant “ad hominem” attacks but in reality are perfectly legitimate sticking points as to why no one should believe a word you print.
Oh snap!
Guest, let us know what city and state you live in. I’ll do my best to find you a deal on a nearby struggling Curves and you can buy it and turn it around with your business acumen and by doing things “the Curves way.” Then you can REALLY experience what we’ve all endured. If you make it, congratulations. If you don’t, welcome to the club.
I don’t want to be harsh, but come on. No wonder you are “wipedout”. Did you ever take anyone’s advice without insisting that they fail like you did in order to validate their position? That’s nonsense! Do you even read the replies sent to you when you make such silly propositions before making another ludicrous suggestion? As I already said to you:
“And sure, I’ll zip right down there and snap up that FL club. Please. Stop being ridiculous and learn something for a change. I’ve been driving a car for 40 years. I’ve seen plenty of accidents in my time. I don’t have to be involved in the accident to understand what that person did wrong. Likewise, I have been running businesses for over 30 years, I don’t have to mismanage your business to see what you are doing wrong. Also, you make the assumption that I never owned a Curves or similar business.”
and then to “visitor” when he/she said to buy a $500 club and turn it around:
“…all you sharp business minds are forgetting that these re-sales are going to be tied to taking over crazy stupid leases as a condition of the sale. A $500 cost to take over a $5,000+/month lease may sound like a great idea to you, but then again, many of you thought it was a good idea to pay $150,000 to take over a $200,000+ worth of lease liability – and THANK the seller for the “opportunity” on top of it!”
You want me to prove I understand business concepts better than you? I’ve already done that numerous times here, but the simple truth is that the proof is in the pudding: you are the one out of business, not me. Of course, here’s the difference, while I too have had setbacks in business, I’ve learned from my mistakes, listened to people more successful than I (instead of listening to people who failed even worse … unhappy) and moved on. You are still listening to people like unhappy who tell you to ignore people who tell you to start with the basics – by reducing your rent and payroll! I look and see some people here GIVING crap away while at the SAME TIME letting OTHER people SELL in their club! “Here, let me GIVE this to you. But PAY that member there for HER products!” Does ANYONE honestly think that that is a good business model? Why would I want to experience YOUR failure instead of my success? You’re being just plain silly now. Please, pay attention, stop wallowing in self pity, learn from your mistakes, separate yourself from people like unhappy who actually seem proud about how they failed, and move on!
Wipedout,
Like I’ve said many times before why even respond to such a dimwit such as guest whoever she, he or “It” is as it is just a waste of our time. “It” doesn’t have anything to offer to this board or discussion about Curves and Howie’s dishonest business practices. It is obvious to all Curves owners that “It” is in bed with Howie and only here to stir up controversy and try to prevent owners from getting legal advice for their problems with Curves and Howie. “It” will argue that “It’s” points are valid when we all know from personal experience how wrong and idiotic “It’s” points are. All ‘It’s” wants to do is to try to place blame on the owners and never ever has any response to the facts of how Howie has mismanaged Curves. Besides if funny how “It” reacts when we ignore “It” posts and how mad and upset “It” gets.
Thanks to this board many owners who were being intimidated by Howie illegal tactics into paying a closing fee, franchise fees, and advertising fees after they had closed have stop paying Howie a dime. In 09 if you closed Howie would threaten to send the owners to Curves legal department if you didn’t pay and would actually file a lawsuit against owners and because of this board owners realized that it was all intimidation and extortion and fought back with lawyers who we had referred them to in Waco TX. Those owners took those cases on a contingency fee of 40 % and in each case filed counter suits against Howie for three times the amount requested by Howie’s summons. In each case Howie has had to offer out of court settlements to prevent the cases from going to trial as Howie’s lawyers informed Howie that he would lose in court if they went to trial. This can be proven by looking at the FDD disclosure document and seeing how many law suits have been settled by Howie but of course “It” will contend that it just makes good business since for Howie to settle out of court to limit the liability in those cases while not admitting to any responsibility…Ya right Furthermore speaking about the FDD document. Did you see where the state of CA had put a stop on all sales of Curves franchises for fraudulent statements made in the current FDD that was filed at the end of March? Howie has until the end of June to make corrections or fraud charges will be file in the State of California against him. I have no doubt that Howie will correct the filling so that he doesn’t end up in jail (wouldn’t be the first time Howie was in jail) but it certainly shows that he is a crook.
Howie being the dishonest, unethical, immoral crook that he is has changed his tactics since the first of the year, all because of this site. Instead of trying to take the owners to court Howie refers them to a collection agency out of ILL. The first letter owners are receiving is from the Law Offices of Serota, Avis & Assoc We all thought it was funny that the firm was from IL. not TX. but upon further research it is obvious why. Go here to check it out.
Ripoff Report for Barry Serota & Associates
http://www.ripoffreport.com/bbb-better-business-bureau/barry-serota-associa/barry-serota-associates-they-w4b98.htm
http://www.ripoffreport.com/auto-repair-service/barry-serota-associa/barry-serota-associates-j-d5f44.htm
Complaints of harrassment/deceptive practices from Serota on behalf of ADT:
http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/8474836257
Better Business Bureau for Barry Serota & Associates:
http://www.bbb.org/chicago/business-reviews/attorneys/law-offices-of-barry-serota-and-associates-in-arlington-heights-il-51002411
What the old saying, birds of a feather flock together? Well I guess it true. Once a crook always a crook and they seem to stick together. Howie the crook,
Barry Serota the crook and “it” all seem to flock together and all are worthless pieces of sh–. Let them all rot in hell together.
According to California Lawyer at http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-847-483-6257 there is no Barry Serota law firm because Serota is dead. Here’s California Lawyer’s comment:
“Barry Serota is deceased. The Law Offices of Barry Serota is not a registered professional corporation, therefore the Law Offices of Barry Serota does not exist. Using a deceased attorney’s name to collect consumer debts is a violation of the FDPCA and is the unauthorized practice of law. If you are contacted by Robert Polansky, John Frank, or anyone else purporting to be from the law office of Barry Serota, contact the Illinois State Bar Task Force on Unauthorized Practice of Law, (800) 252-8908.”
Thanks anon for you informative post. Anyone who even tries to stand up for Howie at this point not only has no credibility but is just a plain fool. To even try and put owners down as incompetent business owners is either a stooge for Howie or just plain and simply an idiot. They have no place on this board and their post should be ignored as irrelevant and total nonsense.
TO ALL CURVES CLUB OWNERS HERE ARE THE SITES YOU NEED TO GO TO TO FILE COMPLAINTS AGAINST CURVES INTERNATIONAL AND HOWIE.
http://www.bbb.org/
http://waco.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx?site=40&id=ab5100aa-4c5a-4314-8e1b-f5996973f10c
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/consumer/index.shtml
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/index.shtml
I did learn ONE lesson from this debacle which cost us our home and most of our life savings. I’ll never buy a CURVES again. We were doing tremendously well until Curves opened another territory near us. Now BOTH clubs are long gone. Curves’ greed oversaturated the market.
Did you lose as much as we did, guest? How did you bounce back and move on?
Wipedout said: “We were doing tremendously well until Curves opened another territory near us. Now BOTH clubs are long gone. Curves’ greed oversaturated the market.”
Still looking for that ONE thing to blame it on, huh? If it were truly just oversaturation, when one of the clubs closed, the market would have shifted and the remaining club would have rebounded. But as you said, that is NOT the case. Starbucks too learned this simple truth when they had mass closings to “de-saturate” the market.
I’m honestly sorry you lost so much after having so much. But it looks like you’ve done the same thing so many other owners did: did NOT put away for a rainy day, expecting the “good ol’ days” to last forever. Not only that, but when you sold your one club for over $100,000, you didn’t get out and lost not only that $100,000 but how much more? And now you’re compounding you error by listening to failures like unhappy. I realize “the rut” is comfortable, you can feel the sides of it as you walk along it, it’s almost as if it’s hugging you, you know where it is and where it’s going, but until you get out of it and away from the people stuck in it who are HAPPY being unhappy in it, you’ll never progress forward.
unhappy, I’d like to thank you for once again giving us a textbook example of “argumentum ad hominem”! While you claim to be the upholder of truth and feign distain when people make “Ad Hominid attacks” (that’s just awesome by the way, I’m gonna get laughs over that for ages to come) anyway, while on the one hand you claim to detest irrelevant personal attacks and wish people would keep on topic, it is simply mind boggling that with the other that is the ONLY response you will give when someone challenges you and the utter nonsense you spew. Of course, you have no choice as you’ve paced yourself in an indefensible position.
Calling someone “it” as if by making the author a non-human entity justifies ignoring their entire argument or would turn out the light shown on your nonsense. It’s classic ad hominem. When that doesn’t work, i.e. every time you “respond”, you throw in that ANYONE who disagrees with you is a “dimwit” and/or “in bed with Howie”, as if only idiots and paid employees of Curves could ever disagree with you. Certainly not anyone with any business sense! Now of course, some of your die hard believers will accept these as a viable arguments, but anyone with a whit of intelligence realizes the foolishness of this and sees that you are never able to actually defend yourself with verifiable facts.
I, and many others here, do and have suggested that people requiring it, get legal advice – but that they get it from an actual lawyer and not someone who has a vested interest in them joining a suit that they themselves are not even willing to pay any money into! And more importantly that they get BUSINESS advice from persons other than you.
As a matter of fact (facts, something you aren’t very well acquainted with, but are of a concern to most people) despite your claim otherwise I’ve never defended Curves treatment of owners or business practices and I don’t see where anyone else here has either. Yet EVERY time someone disagrees with you, you state that they are defending Curves – you did it again in your last post. I don’t understand how someone with your claimed intellect can not grasp that just because someone disagrees with what Curves has done and is doing, does NOT mean that they have to agree with you and your rantings. Can you not fathom that one person can disagree with two other people who are fighting with each other? Just because we may agree that Curves has behaved inappropriately (and possibly even unethically, though you never know what is truth and what is fiction around here) but even if we were to take that as a given, that THEY are unethical, does that by default make YOU ethical and worthy of anyone’s support? No, the enemy of my enemy is NOT always my friend. You sir are no one’s friend (with maybe the exception of the folks at Zarco!). There were, and are, plenty of people who completely disagreed with Hitler, does that mean that they have to agree with Stalin? Maybe, just maybe, there was another alternative to Fascism than Communism? Hmmmmm….
Again, how many cases have your lawyers won against Curves? Where is that multi-million dollar payout that everyone (well, everyone but you) is paying Zarco to get? You talk about settled cases, but none of those have ANYTHING to do with the case at hand. It’s just more of the twisted logic you use. Just because others have been able to get a settlement, does not mean your case is worth anything. You’re like the guy at the corner 7-11 with his scratch cards – “One day, I’ll hit it big!”. Except at least he is gambling with his own money, you on the other hand got everyone else to gamble with THEIR money when you wouldn’t do so yourself. THEN, if anyone actually wins something, you’ll be able to bring your freebie suit completely on a contingency basis without having had to actually risk any of your own money – but made how much in “finder’s fees”?!
Unhappy states:
‘…Ya right Furthermore speaking about the FDD document. Did you see where the state of CA had put a stop on all sales of Curves franchises for fraudulent statements made in the current FDD that was filed at the end of March? Howie has until the end of June to make corrections or fraud charges will be file in the State of California against him.’
I think you need to provide a source that ‘fraud charges’ will be brought up if they don’t correct the FDD by the end of June, because I’m guessing that you are once again ‘bending’ the truth.
Most likely the fact is that their FDD is in non-compliance, therefore they aren’t legally allowed to sell or have anyone be disclosed using said FDD. Odds are their last FDD ran out in April 2010. If they were selling franchises between the notice (April) and now to CA residents, then they would be in violation, which the franchisee could rescind the franchise agreement and Curves would have to pay back the franchise fee and likely be fined by the State.
I’m curious to know where you get the fraud claim from because to win on a fraud claim someone has to have economic damages and relied on the statement (as well as other factors). If they haven’t sold since their notice then there would be no fraud, because no one would have relied on the franchise documents. Again, I’m guessing you are trying to talk ‘big’, but really don’t understand it actually works.
As for what guest states, they are pretty accurate statements. While Unhappy and Wipedout would like to silence them, the other people on here should really read the advice and look at it from both ways. Think of it this way, Unhappy thinks CI will be bankrupt early next year, if not sooner. Well, what do you think will happen to these second round of lawsuits he talks about? No attorney will take those cases on a contingency basis, if there is no money there. And if you think you’ll get to his personal accounts, don’t be so sure, because he has been dismissed as a defendant in the big case going on right now.
Howie is at it again trying to rip off owners who have bought into the Curves Smart equipment (about 45% of the clubs bought into it) If it wasn’t bad enough when Howie came up with the Curves Smart idea he sold it to franchises as new technology (it was actually ten years old at the time and never worked than nor does it work now) and that Curves International would spend hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars advertising the roll out of Curves Smart to generate new members coming into clubs. Of course all owners now know that was just another lie from Howie as so far there has been no national advertising campaign for Curves Smart, .
But now Howie and Curves International is KNOWINGLY strong-handedly trying to get owners who have closed to violate their leases with the CS leasing company. In short, when one takes out a lease for capital equipment, it is standard in such leases that the lessee MUST maintain possession of the equipment until the lease is up. At that point, you return the equipment to the leasing company (like a car lease, for example) or you have a buy-out clause (often $1). Most Curves owners have a $1 buy-out clause. Howie and Curves International is telling owners who have Smart and have closed that they “have to” return the CS equipment to curves International, although no where does it say that owners have to do this (especially if owners own the equipment!). The wording of their closing documents (that someone kindly posted on the owners-managers site) specifically notes that if you have a lease, you need to be aware of the chain of possession. Somehow they think this will get them out of trouble with the leasor. Anyway, they are offering to “release” people from their franchise agreement IF they return the CS equipment, but what is someone who has a lease supposed to do? They are then selling the “refurbished” equipment to a new owner for $6,000. MyTrak was NOT happy to hear about this and said that it has nothing to do with Curves International (they recommended to one owner to keep her equipment and try to sell it to another owner). And not surprisingly, United Leasing does not seem particularly happy either. One owner posted that they were VERY upset when she returned the equipment to curves International , since she owes the lease. Just another case of Howie’s fraudulent business tactics Howie you are nothing but a crook.
Unhappy states:
‘Howie and Curves International is telling owners who have Smart and have closed that they “have to” return the CS equipment to curves International, although no where does it say that owners have to do this (especially if owners own the equipment!).’
Do people read their franchise agreements (I’m guessing not many do or maybe it’s the fact that this is stated on pg 38 of their 2008 agreement):
‘Grant to Curves the option to purchase all equipment used in the operation of Franchisee’s Facility and other usable items bearing the Curves Marks at fair market value not to exceed $1,000…’
It might be ‘unethical’, but it seems like what they are doing is legal. The franchisee should be reading all of their contracts and verify the ‘chain of possession.’ In a case like this, it’d be wise to contact an attorney and get advice on your legal options.
Note to all: Please refer to each other by the “commenter” name only. Attempts to “out” one another’s real or suspected identites is bad form and an extreme breach of netiquette punishable by banishment from this esteemed community. Thanks. The Management
It would be great if you guys could stop the name calling and petty bickering. There’s a lot of good information on this thread but unfortunately we’ve got to wade thru alot of shiping back & forth. Insulting the other doesn’t make you seem smarter, just unprofessional.
Some of us are looking for real information and appreciate it when you all stick to substance and not namecalling.
“Guest” are you just one person? why don’t you pick a more specific moniker? just trying to figure out if all the comments are coming from one person or another…
Per your (“guest”) post to Judy, who wanted to skip the fees to Curves International so she could have a chance at making a profit, I’m guessing this Guest hasn’t actually owned a franchise.
Here’s why, from my personal experience:
At 260 members the fees are much higher. I didn’t have the sliding scale but I compared and at 250 they’re pretty close. In fact if I remember right, the ad fee was much higher at 250. Anyways, I was paying Curves International:
– $395 monthly royalties
– $195 ad fees
– $ 20 or so for managing my “wellness memberships”
that’s $610 a month….
(btw- the wellness program sounds like a winner but it lost me a ton of money…. imagine going from someone who prepaid their year every january (39×12 +tax) to $4/visit…. that was the tradeoff i had for over a dozen women at one club and nearly a dozen at the other)
and I think I was paying them
$365 Curves Smart Lease
$ 99 Curves Smart Computer
that’s another $455 that you could argue I wasn’t paying to Howie but still, because of Howie….
With that monthly $610 or the additional $455/month I could have done alot more advertising or other incentives to fight to keep my club going during this recession. I agree with Judy wholeheartedly.
And it makes me more agreeable to “unhappy”‘s assertion that you don’t have any real franchise experience.
■guest on June 11th, 2010 2:03 pm
Judy said: “Without the fees you would at least have a chance of a profit.”
Quit kidding yourself. With Curves minimum monthly fees at just 95 and 195,………….
Guest,
A few requests:
1) Please post with a working email address so I can address issues like these offline,
2) Please email me at unhappyfranchisee[at]gmail.com about site policies, enforcement, etc.
3) Stop using the IP anonymizer because all your comments have to be retrieved manually from the spam filter. We literally get hundreds of porn, cialis and other “comment spam” entries per day and I’m going to discontinue combing through them soon.
Thanks
Justine Curver,
From your numbers, you were on the flat/fixed rate on both your fees. The minimums I was referring to (as laid out here a few times by different people) are in fact the minimums that anyone on the sliding percentage paid. My reason for quoting the minimums was that if someone is not making any money (and they may well not be, I’m NOT saying they are lying or anything) but if they have nothing coming in, then they would be at the low end of the scale and paying only the minimums and therefore the money they would “save” by NOT being a Curves would be the amounts I quoted: $290/month.
Now, as to YOUR numbers. You were on a flat rate of $590/month whether you were grossing $2,000 a month or $20,000. Don’t know and don’t care what your gross was, that isn’t the point. The point at hand was how much would be SAVED by NOT being a Curves. In your case you quote yourself at $610 when you include the wellness management fees(I’ll address the rest of your proposed savings in a minute). OK, let’s see what including wellness into the equation does for us…if you weren’t a Curves you are correct, you’d have no wellness management fees because you’d have no wellness members. So, as well as saving the $20 a month you’d also be LOSING money (now, I’m going to have to do something here that I don’t’ like doing: guess with very limited information, so you’ll excuse me if I’m a bit off in my math. You didn’t say, so I’ll just have to wing it a bit) assuming just a 4 visit a month average on your wellness members (even though my average for a wellness member was 7, I’m feeling generous), also that only half were on Curves Smart (again, felling generous, as we only had 10% NOT do Smart), and assuming that NONE of them were on the flat $33/$35/$40 fee (i.e. existing members who switched to wellness), at $1 per member, $20 dollars in wellness fees means 20 wellness members, not great, but hey, let’s work with what we’ve got and see what happens. So, 20 members X 4 visits on average X $4/visit = $320 PLUS you are allowed to charge a monthly Smart fee directly to the members for each one on Smart (plus the initial fee, but we’re looking at the monthly “savings” you’d get for not being a Curves, so we’ll forget that for now) so we assumed just half on Smart for 10 members X $5 = $50. $320 + $50 = $370 in lost wellness. So, for wellness, you’d be saving $20 but losing $370. So, you’re right, my numbers to Judy ($290 / month in savings) aren’t the same for you. You’d be saving $610 – $370 = $240 oh, wait, look at that, that’s worse! And I SWEAR, I didn’t do the math until the end, so I’m as surprised as you. But in actuality, unless Judy had ZERO wellness, she’d be saving even less than the $290 I quoted before. So you might be saving a little more than she would, but not much. Thank you for reminding me about the wellness monies she’d lose!
Actually, I just re-read your post and I see that you said that you had over a dozen members at your one club and nearly a dozen at the other switch to wellness (since we’re going with a per club savings, let’s stick with one club and call it a dozen). OK, well, up until Jan this year for the one $4/visit program, and next month for the other $4/visit program, for existing members switching to wellness, you were getting $35 and $40 / month respectively. PLUS you got the Smart fee as well for those members. So, even with paying the $1/member/month you were getting $39 and $44 instead of your normal $39. That means it would increase the loss of wellness and decrease your savings even more. Sorry. Again, you didn’t give me all the facts, so I’m just going off what you said. I’ll gladly redo the math when you provide more facts. But, though I’m sure it will be ignored, I’ve made my point.
As to including in your “savings” your Smart lease and support contract, first, you’d still be paying off your lease if you keep the equipment, second, having Smart in a club of 260 members MORE than pays the monthly expense of the lease and contract. And of course, if you are talking about not having to pay for Smart, that would mean you returned it to the leasing company and weren’t using it, selling it, or earning from it. OK. I guess, if we’re going down this route, you could also say that you wouldn’t be using iGofigure and save that money too, but then you’d be running your club without any member management software.
Also, despite saying it a few times, you failed to get the point that that small amount is NOT what is killing owners. While in every business, it really is important to count your pennies, in this case it’s the BIGGIES, rent and payroll, that are decimating these businesses. BUT both of which I showed can, and should be managed better than they are by people. There is NO REASON to be overpaying for rent and payroll. Not with the state the commercial real estate market is in and double digit unemployment. I suggest you read more carefully as it looks like you completely missed this. $240 (or less) in “savings” for you to NOT be in the franchises system is in no way going to turn an unprofitable club profitable. It just isn’t going to happen. However, controlling your rent and payroll CAN.
Not that I’m trying to convince you, or anyone, to stay with Curves, I’m not. But if you think that it’s tough doing business as a Curves, you might want to look at the stats for a ladies gym with NO name recognition. “Justine’s Fast Workout” simply isn’t going to cut it. Not even without franchise fees!
Lastly, with respect to your, “guess” that I “never owned a franchise”, not only did I own several Curves, as evidenced by the content in my posts, but others have been corrected for that presumption – I owned other similar businesses and have been running businesses for over 30 years (including owning another non-fitness franchise). But that doesn’t matter. At least 90% of what I’ve said is NOT franchise dependent. It’s simply good business sense. But, if the ONLY people you are going to listen to are people who owned a franchise and failed, as if only they can understand your problems, well then, you too are doomed to failure.
Guest what do you do now? Are you retired, a CI Spy, the CI accountant? It’s obvious you have too much time on your hands to put that much thought into all the figures and quote eveyone. What exactly is your interest in this site?
The problem with Curves is that it is obvious that so many franchisees are not making it. We pay these fees for royalties and advertising and get very little in return. When we ask our AD or Curves International for help they just say get more BRs or put out more lead bags. These things worked very well in the beginning when Curves was the new workout in town, but now BRs and lead bags are not working. I live in a very small community. My loyal members have given me all the names they want to give and I’m tired of the junk I get in lead bags. What worked in the past is not working now. In training Gary says to do everything the Curves way and it will work.
McDonalds is not serving the same exact food in the same exact manner as when McDonalds first opened. They have changed with the times. Curves has not changed anything. It is obvious that the Curves way is not working and there needs to be some changes.
I understand that we are all independent owners and we are responsible for our own sucess or failure. But when you are told to only do things the Curves way and are reprimanded when you go outside of the box, what are we to do? I’m tired of the old BRs and lead bags. We need something more from Curves International.
What made Curves so big in the first place? It was different from the same old gym. Yes there were other knockoffs. But Curves was the best. Curves was different. Now Curves is old news and we need something else that is new and different. Curves Smart seemed to be answer but it was the same concept. We need Curves to reinvent itself and be the new exciting workout again.
Hopefully our royalties are being spent in a way that is developing new products again. But I doubt it.
I have to agree with Kim. Guest you have way to much time on your hands to own any business. I do not think that Guest ever owned a Curves. I think he works for CI and it striclty their to post on these sites. I also owned 2 other business, successfully I might add, besides Curves. oh wait no I just closed my doors on my Curves because I was in the HOLE EVERY MONTH. So guest stop wasting your time on this site its obvious that your only job is to criticize people and are probably getting paid to do it.. Oh by the way before you have a remark about what I’m doing on the site during the day with two business to run my little boy has strep I am home with him today.
“Are you … a CI Spy, the CI accountant? It’s obvious you have too much time on your hands to put that much thought into all the figures and quote eveyone.”
Well Kim, when you’ve been in business as long as I have, it doesn’t take a lot of time to do the math. One of my biggest points has been that this DOESN’T take “that much thought”. It’s business basics. When you bought a franchise you mistakenly figured you could skip right over the basics. Don’t feel bad, you’re not alone in that mistake. But we’re not talking spreadsheets and databases here. This is basic 1 + 1 = 2 math. If you think it takes an accountant to do these calculations, I hope you have one.
Yet another “he’s a CI spy!” voice added to the chorus? How original. Please, try to attack the argument instead of the man. Find fault with what I say, not who you THINK I may be. Where am I defending anything other than common (business) sense? I just said, 90+% of what I’ve said has nothing to do with running a franchise, but running ANY business.
Well under 2 minutes. I’m pretty sure that I’ll still manage to get done everything I need to do today. It helps if you can think and type very fast. Mind you, even though I was just saying the same things again – but in a slightly different way in hopes that something would slip through – that last post did take I guess about 10-12 minutes while I was watching the news. No big loss though, I did it during commercial breaks and while watching the weather and finished during a story about (another) European strike. Whoops, now I’m at almost 3 minutes!
Is the “Rite of Passage” contract buy-out new? 3 owners near me “settled” for a $2500.00 contract buy-out. But they only give you 14 days to pay it or they claim they will send you to legal.
Has anyone here done this? And if so….did you pay the $ in 14 days before being sent to legal?
to endofmyropeisanoose
Curves and Howie has just changed the name to” Rite of Passage” to get owners to pay a portion of the closing fee. They than tell owners they will get a mutual release. It is not mutual as it prevents owners from sueing curves but Curves can still sue owners. If you close early, you do not owe anything to Curves legally and Howie can not force you to pay a dime. Don’t pay a dime more to Curves or Howie after you close.
ATTENTION ALL PAST AND PRESENT CURVES OWNERS
We are in the process of starting a yahoo group site for present and past owners of curves franchises where all the resources for closing, reselling of equipment, lawyers information, current news and lawsuit information will be available to all individuals who have owned a Curves franchise. The only requirement to join in the group will be that you will have had to at one time owned a Curves franchise and will be verified by our moderators before being allowed access into the site. We hope to have the site up and running in the next two weeks and will post the site address as soon as it is completed.
Guest
It is imperative that any business examine how every penny is spent. Lets take a look at some actual facts.
In the past 7 plus years, I paid $195 per month in ad fees. Review of my stats for the last 3 years show those fees generated new members at a cost of $585 per member. Membership fees of one year were $468 each. (difference of -117)
Curves approved local advertising cost an average of $196 per new member, but generated for fewer leads.
Non-approved local adverising cost an average of $8 per new member and generated a high number of leads. (Then CII shut all of these down)
Non approved Curves advertising generated 28 members to every 4 generated by Curves Advertising.
Last year, CII commercial attacking WW stopped any and all referrals from WW meetings locally. Prior to that time those referrals were frequent and at $0 cost to my club .
Where would you choose to spend advertising dollars?
Its not just an issue of saving $195 per month by NOT paying CII. But instead, what if one could take that $195 and invest it in something with a higher return?
It doesn’t make good business sense to me to continue to pay anything for results of those ad fees.
Not only are we paying for costly ineffective advertising, but we are also paying a franchisor to tell us not to do what does work.
frazzled
Frazzled,
I’m all for looking at “actual facts”. :) However, I think you’ve made an error. According to your math (195 per month X 12 = 2340, 2340 divided by a quoted 585 per member cost = 4 new members per year from that 2340 investment) you are saying that you got just 4 new members per YEAR from all branding sources? That’s 4 members a year from all the following COMBINED: signage, 1800 number, TV, the internet, phonebook, national partnerships, wellness, national coverage on shows like Dr. Oz and Tyra, etc…? I find that more than a little hard to believe since we averaged over 5 a MONTH from all those sources. I think you meant was that you averaged 4 new members per MONTH which would mean a cost of $49 per new member (195 / 4).
Also, you say your non-approved advertising generated 28 members at a cost of just $8 per new member. WOW!!! I’m sure EVERYONE here, particularly those that still own a club, would love to know what advertising you did for $224 that generated 28 members! (8 x 28 = 224)
Won’t disagree with you at all on the WW commercial. Bad move.
Guest
My post addressses what you get for $195 per month ad fees.
I did not make an error. Believe me, I wish those results were different. But you are making an error. Reread my post. My calculations are done on members that are direct result of 195 monthly ad fees. Yes, I average 4 members per year as a result of that advertising Curves does. Sad, isn’t it ?
That EXCLUDES new members as a result of sign, phone book or anything else I pay. I did not include phone book or signage on the calculations for my local ads either. since I do not have any monthly or yearly costs associated with them. In addition, surveys in my club show that most of my members have never seen a Curves ad or any other Curves mention on TV.
Now, my costs would go up even more if I actually calculated the time spent by staff contacting leads from the internet from Curves. Many of those leads turn out to be false. For some weird reason, the leads that come from the Curves internet have an extremely high rate of being “wrong number”, “states did not make the request”, “business number”, etc. Leads that come through my own website have a much lower error rate. (In fact, we were very disappointed with the initial internet leads we first received from Curves as the majority of these were incorrect numbers, etc. those years are not included here.)
As for the 800 number, I have NEVER had a new member through the 1-800 number. I have had calls, but none of these people are in my territory.
Every , I repeat, every 1=800 call that I got has been for a club located at least 30 miles away. I get all of her 800 calls. Apparently, no one gets mine. ( I take the name and number and then call the other club. We laugh each time about it and wonder if it will ever change. She gets no calls on the 800 number )
Wellness: I did not include wellness in the calculation. Why? I had 0 new members from wellness until I did open houses with the insurance reps, incurring other costs. Then, my total new members from wellness is less than 20.. Out of that 20, I only get about 10 total workouts per month in spite of programs and time spent to increase attendance. Wellness actually costs me money to run. The attendance rate is so low on the new members plus when I calcualte money loss on my members who switched it really throws it off. I figure this separately. If I added t those figures it would actually increase the amount ad fees cost me. Actually, I should have included these calculations.
Your club is obviously doing better. I have not recieved 5 new members in one month from any source in a very, very long time.
You would think Curves would be interested in my good advertising results. But when I shared it, they shut it down.
RIP Heath, OH
“HEATH — The Curves fitness club in Heath closed suddenly last week, but the Curves in Newark will honor payments made by Heath members, according to new Newark club owner Kim McIntyre.
The Heath Curves closed with little notice to employees and no notice to members, according to frustrated members who showed up to find a note on the door of the business at 1002 Hebron Road.
McIntyre said the Newark Curves, 1222 N. 21st St., already has absorbed about 40 transfers from the Heath facility. The Newark facility has seven employees and about 260 members.”
http://www.newarkadvocate.com/article/20100610/NEWS01/6100369/HEATH-CURVES-CLOSES-TRANSFERS-OFFERED
RIP Nipomo, CA:
“Suddenly, Curves closes in Nipomo… The sudden closing of Curves in Nipomo was a surprise to many. The fitness center is no longer open, but Healthy Inspirations of Nipomo is offering free enrollment and a special deal for people who want to continue working out in Nipomo.”
http://www.theadobepress.com/articles/2010/06/04/columns/weitzel/weitzel.txt
RIP Boyertown PA
“Curves, a fitness club for women which is located at 120 East Philadelphia Avenue, Boyertown, will officially close on Saturday. Curves owner and Pottstown resident Susan Xander said that the club is closing because of the economic situation and declining membership.
Xander wanted to find someone to take over the franchise but was unable to.
The club has been at its East Philadelphia location for about six years and Xander has been the owner for more than three years.” http://www.berksmontnews.com/articles/2010/02/09/boyertown_area_times/news/doc4b71d6c0477ee488489628.txt
Isn’t that Heath, Ohio not Heath, NJ?
Guest, (still not sure if I’m addressing one person…) I’m sorry if I was not clear. Though I was paying a fixed rate for royalties and ci’s “ad fees”, at 260 members I was paying a little less than someone on the sliding scale. I don’t have the exact sliding scale fees available but I did comparisons as I was talking to a couple of potential buyers before I closed. (yeah, the potential was lost)
Also, as to Judy’s original thought on getting relief from those fees, I interpreted it as a temporary relief, like a short-term subsidy or grant, to allow a franchise an opportunity to get through lean times. I was not talking about giving up on the Curves community. As you may not realize, other successful Franchisor’s do grant such relief, and other support, to help their Franchisee’s survive hardships, whether the hardship is caused by poor management, misfortune or calamity.
So, I think you grate alot of us who wish C.I. had extended a little more help for our survival by accusing us of exercising poor judgement/management/whatever. AND really, I wonder if you aren’t quick to criticize our misfortunes to help distance yourself from your fears that the same thing could or did happen to you.
Yes, Heath, OH. My bad. Thanx for fixing.
“other successful Franchisor’s do grant such relief, and other support, to help their Franchisee’s survive hardships, whether the hardship is caused by poor management, misfortune or calamity.
So, I think you grate alot of us who wish C.I. had extended a little more help for our survival…”
If Guest is right that the fees do not amount to a significant amount, then it would not cost CI that much to suspend fees for struggling clubs. It would be a big gesture for little money.
As you read through these nearly 800 comments, you wonder how different things would be if CI would at least PRETEND that they understood and cared about what their franchisees are going through.
Apparently, what I have is what other Curves Owners are calling a ‘corridor property’. Hmmm….never heard the term till lately.
Long story short, down to 52 members. I was one of the few that actually made $ with a membership of 150. But times are tough and people moved out of my ‘corridor’.
Can I still use the above e-mail address and get info on the ROP closing before I set any wheels in motion?
Thanx to all here who care and support each other.
Frazzled,
Said: “My post addressses what you get for $195 per month ad fees.”
While I understand your points, if you are going to talk about what that 195 gets you in leads, you have to include all branding leads. For example, even when someone does a search for “Curves” and is from your area and gets your personal website, you understand that that is because of branding. Something that you would NOT get as a non-Curves/independent gym. And while you did of course pay for your signage, as I said to Curver, if the sign said “Frazzled’s lady’s gym” instead of “Curves” you wouldn’t be getting nearly the walkins you get with a “branded” sign. Same thing with your name in the phone book. Even more now, when a person goes to the phonebook they are looking for a SPECIFIC company or product. My point is, either you include it all or you don’t. You can’t have it both ways – complain about the cost but exclude certain benefits.
As to your other costs to follow up on leads, develop relationships with potential member pools, etc… these are normal business expenses for EVERY business that you would STILL have, even if you were not a Curves.
Contrary to the mistaken opinions of some, and baseless accusations here, I can’t and don’t speak for CI so I can’t say why they continue to disregard successful campaigns run by owners, but I would sincerely like to know what the advertising was you did that netted you 28 members for just $224.
Guest
This is my first time to write anything. Whoever this person is professing to know it all is full of S@*T.
I bet he does not and never has owned a Curves! I have ran my business for 21 years and I am still making money in these bad times. I bought a Curves for my wife a year ago (I’ll admit I’m DA) and we have not made one dime. We took a run down Curves, moved it in to a brand new building,, new carpet, new paint, etc.
In the past year not one person from curves has set foot in our club, not one. My wife ask for help and you know what they say, “put out more lead bags..” That’s a crock. I have been reading all post for about 9 months. Wish I had before I purchased this money pit. I really don’t care what CI says. I will do what ever it takes to try and make this business go.
I realized what a bad mistake I had made when my wife came back from Curves Camp. What a joke! If you are reading this Howie, please pull my franchise, PLEASE!!!
P.S. If you find misspelled words or bad grammar don’t bother to correct it. I are an engineer, don’t spell.