IS AMWAY A SCAM?

1,020 thoughts on “IS AMWAY A SCAM?”

• hmmm … and now reading that Amway, after the first agreement broke down, sued Dyson for fraudulent conduct and deception, and Dyson settled that one. Funnily enough neither Larsen (amquix) or Brear mention that part.

  Clearly there’s more to the story than we know, like most business disputes probably faults and misunderstandings on both sides.

• Perhaps misunderstanding on both sides indeed, but a the end of the day, Dyson’s musted have some type of a valid claim, since he did won the case…If Amway was not using his ideas at all, Dyson’s claim would be proven frivolous by Amway. One way or the other we don’t know, but i just cannot imagine what stipulation in any agreement would have allow Amway to use Dyson’s ideas without paying for them (if that indeed is what Amway was doing). However, I am not defending Dyson—I don’t know the guy maybe he was at fault at something maybe not.

• None of which is directly related to why Amway is a scam, the topic of this thread, except to say this behavior is consistent with the Amway Tool Scam (ATS) and the lawsuit Amway has against me. They have totally backed off the original charge of IBOs quitting over my cussing in emails, and now contend they found 95 IBOs who had “decreased business activity” after receiving my emails, which fully describe the ATS and informing the IBOs it is illegal to advertise their businesses online, either/both of which would logically result in a “decreased business activity,” not to mention the average IBO doesn’t do very much and allows their IBOship to lapse, which could also be counted as “decreased business activity.” Amway is a bunch of thugs who couldn’t run an honest business unless they were forced to do so, as they have been in the UK and India. Read more about the ATS here so you don’t get scammed: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/

• Explorer, I disagree that Dyson “must have some type of valid claim, since he won the case”.

  He didn’t win the case, Amway settled. Just like in the first case of Amway vs Dyson, they didn’t win either, Dyson settled.

  It’s impossible to know why they settled.

  What I think is likely is that in both cases the plaintiffs *thought* they had a case, which means both sides *thought* the other side had done something wrong.

  That tells is something about motivations, which is why I suspect it (mostly) arose out of miscommunication and misunderstandings. International businesses and patents and licencing were harder to keep track of 20+ years ago than they were today, and Dyson’s company wasn’t that experienced with it. I note he got into legal trouble with the next company he tried to work with in North America too (Iona). From what I’ve read of him I think problems arose out of that inexperience rather than from any deliberately bad motives.

  Reading between the lines what I suspect happened is that Dyson told Amway his product was ready to market and fully patent protected, they went ahead with a deal on that basis, then discovered that this wasn’t true and that their “dyson” product needed a lot more money invested to be ready, and worse could easily be targeted and matched by competitors. Dyson in his book indicates he believe a working prototype means it’s ready to be marketed, but even assuming it’s true about the prototype that’s not the case. This is naive (and not unusual for an engineer!). Apart entirely from any technical issues (and at the time of the lawsuit Dyson admitted there were some) there’s an awful lot that has to be done in the intellectual property area as well.

  Feeling aggrieved they’d been misled, and having undoubtedly spent a lot of money on the project already, they decided to go ahead with the project themselves and came up with their own design. Yes it would have been using Dyson’s “ideas” but since he hadn’t protected them properly in the US, and had (from their perspective) misled Amway, they felt justified in continuing with the project and competing with Dyson.

  This (speculation) makes sense in light of Dyson’s comments in his book that his lawsuit against Amway had the best chance of success not for patent infringement, but for using confidential information.

  End result is you have both parties feeling as if they’d been done wrong by the other.

  All speculation of course, but is consistent with what little we do know from Dyson’s book, news articles at the time, and from the publicly available information on the lawsuits.

• Amway settled? Translated that means Amway paid so the terms of the suit remain unknown to the public. It’s Amway’s Modus Operandi. They settle and the terms always include privacy to prevent Amway from looking like the scam they really are.

• Dyson settled? Translated that means Dyson paid so the terms of the suit remain unknown to the public. It’s Dyson’s Modus Operandi. He settles and the terms always include privacy to prevent Dyson from looking like the scammer he really is.

  See – it’s easy! :-/

• It’s easy, but not accurate.

• Whatever the case was, I don’t know much about this Dyson vs Amway issue. I just wanted to see the other side of the story if there was one. What I do know, however, is that I would be pissed off if someone called me to give drawings of my ideas, have them say that they don’t work, but then use them in their own projects, without suggesting at least that we work together and combine ideas–how would you react? Wasn’t Amway’s job to make sure that the invention worked before investing any money? I don’t know what Amway’s justification was for stealing someone else ideas and calling them their own (perhaps there truly was one good justification, I don’t know–but then again, those that nulls the fact that stealing is stealing?) and not wanting to compensate the inventor for the ideas when those Ideas will translate in to millions of dollars for Amway. However, I don’t know what Dyson did, perhaps he was at fault as well, or perhaps Amway didn’t steal his ideas at all–I don’t defend him because I don’t know his person, maybe he was/is a total jerk, a conman, and he is the one who did wrong, but according to the information that is available, it was Amway who used Dyson’s ideas and not the other way around. One way or the other, like i said before, I don’t know much about this issue, I simply wanted to hear the other side and I thought you might know, but I don’t want to be taking space on this issue anymore… I know that the topic should be: Is Amway a scam?

• You could discuss the Dyson issue for months and never get to the bottom of it. Amway isn’t going to talk about their side of the story, and you won’t get any meaningful or unbiased information from any other source.

  Since the topic of this thread is about whether Amway is a scam or not, I suggest you study the Amway Tool Scam, there are TONS of data points that indicate it has existed for several decades, has ripped off literally millions of people for 10s of billions of dollars. Isn’t that more significant than a vacuum cleaner?

• All I have to say guys is the business is not for everyone.
  I’m 21 I started the business when I was 20 about 7 months into the business now, I did all the resurched I could do. Looked at all the pros and cons. I read the scams and bad rep the company has before I joined. But I had a dream of making lots of money and giving my mom a better life.

  My mother heard the oportunity with me and she said to me as long as you are not saleing drugs you can sall what ever you want.

  I started this business and yes I told every one I knew about this, yeah some people said no some said hell yeah what do we do. I never pushed it on any one, (not the business, not the pruduct) I still have all my friends no one runs way when they see me. My house in my house I have nothing but anway products that I use, I don’t have an inventory of things or mountains of things for me to sale. But now I not also have what I had before wich were my friends and family but I also have an incom from this company big enough that I left one of my jobs. And most of my family are my coustumers. I never ever try saleing them something they didn’t want.

  I’m so very thankful for the person that showed me this information(upline). Wich I’m actuly making more money then him, even thow he had mor time in the business than me.

  I love amway. And I’m sorry for that poeple that don’t like it or had a bad experiance with it. Best of luck

• rverdin,

  Did you graduate from high school? I counted “resurched, oportunity, saleing, sall, pruduct, My house in my house, anway, sale [sell], I not also have what I had before, wich, incom, coustumers, saleing, Wich, actuly, thow, mor, experiance” and probably missed a couple.

  You want US to take your word, and you can’t even spell one syllable words correctly? You must be a math major, please provide your mathematical analysis of the Amway business, and don’t forget to include the Amway Tool Scam part of the equation, like ibofb likes to do. LOL

• Haha yeah I did graduate from high school, that I don’t care to spell things corectly is a different thing. I’m on my phone so no I really don’t care how things come out.

  I don’t excpect anyone to take my word for it. Its working for me that’s it idk for the rest of the world.

  I don’t get paied for spelling things right.
  And how sad is it that I am making money from the company you trash and I can’t even spell “sell” how sad is that.

  I don’t have to explain shit all I know every 15th of the month I get a check from amway, plus the money I make on sales even if you don’t like the company.

  The business works with you or with out you. All I’m saying is it really works. Its working for me and for a lot of people I know.

  And it also didn’t work for other peple I know.
  That’s all I got to sat

• So, what’s your PV level and number of legs, average PV per IBO, and how many in each leg?

• I only have 3 legs, in my first leg is formed by 3 ibos, 2nd leg 5 ibos, 3ed leg also has 3 ibos. Total of 11 ibos in my team. They make minimun of 150 pv a month, I usualy make 200 pv a month, I have made 150 pv a few months and also I have made more than 200 pv before. Total pv on my team is around. 1800 pv amonth so I’m only at 15%

• rverdin is a typical IBO. And typical IBOs are like the Amway corporation. It’s hard to get a straight answer from either of them.

  You guys will never know the details of any lawsuit involving Amway. Amway sees fit to pay off al litigants to keep their secrets under lock and key.

  Sooner or later, something is likely to leak out and people like ibofb will have to eat it. That day is probably not far away.

  The weaknesses are being exposed. Diamonds in bankruptcy, diamonds quitting, diamonds losing homes. Sooner or later, something will get out that will clearly illustrate how insidious some of these tool scam leaders are.

• How did I not aswer what I was asked I said pv level how many per leg I said ederyting I was asked idk what you’re trying to trash if I’m being honest and answering my questions

• rverdin, you must have posted just before my comment. 11 downline and they all produce 150 PV? That’s quite an exceptional group. How much are you spending on tools (cds, functions, etc)?

• “I don’t have to explain shit all I know every 15th of the month I get a check from amway, plus the money I make on sales even if you don’t like the company.”

  rverdin:

  Thanks for sharing your information and experience. It’s nice to get some fresh info and a fresh voice among all these regulars who have been sparring like this on multiple sites for years, it seems.

  Thanks for not backing down when your education was attacked.

  I think attacking spelling and grammar in forums like this is a low blow and low class. You never know whether someone’s on a phone in a train, whether English is their 2nd language, or whether they’re dyslexic. Who cares, if their point makes sense. A little civility goes a long way.

• Yes 150pv, its the minimum to make if you want an amway check, you can make less pvs but then you only get the comission money, and not the group check. So everyone does at least their 150pvs to get their check.

  I spend $45 a month on books and cds. I don’t have to but I like to read the books we have on the system they help me in my personal life and with the business. The cds are great motivation and give great tips and so on. But I don’t have to buy it if I don’t want to, its my choice to.

  On meetings I spend $5 a week when I go to the opens on thur. I don’t always go but I like to so that my down lines see me there. I’m okay with paying $5 a week for my uplines to do the work for me, they talk and give the info I just take someone that wants to hear it.

  Seminars are once a month. They are $20
  the ticket I chose to go to those for my benifit only, they have great info and remaind me of things to do and how to do things to make things simple. I also don’t have to go if I don’t want to.

  Conventions are every 4 months and are $120 a ticket those I love to go to they are for info, stories, and motivational speackers. I learn get motivated and have fun, the month there is a convention there is no seminar so not spending twise.

  For the record my upline never made me go to any of this, he invited me to the first and said it would help, after my fist it was my choice to go he didn’t make me he didn’t keep say I had to keep goin.

  So I have invested around $700. In cds books and op, sem, con.

  I think it fine for me I’m learning about my business, I’m getting better I have fun when I go, because I want to be there no one makes me.

  But I can also say I have also spent $700 or more in othere things that have nothing to do with this business that I do for fun sports events, dinners, movies, clubs, and so on so me spending money on something that is helping me is money well spent.

  To me is like college, amway college, I’m getting my major on what my carrier is. People that go to any other college spend lots and lots of money on what they want to be, then they graduate and go out looking for a job. I spend money and get educated for a job I already have.

  So I don’t mind paying for my education.

• rverdin,

  You live in the U.S., correct? If so, you are wrong about the 150 PV level, it is really 100 PV. Your upline is probably teaching 100 PV personal volume and 50 PV retail (selling to non-IBOs), right? Here’s the source to prove my point: http://www.amway.com/en/ResourceCenterDocuments/Visitor/ops-amw-gde-v-en–BusinessReferenceGuide.pdf

  However, there is no minimum personal purchase to receive the downline volume bonus, just the retail requirement of 50 PV (or have 10 different customers/month).

  Looks to me your 7 months of “education” isn’t working out very well AND your upline is lying to you. LOL

  If you count the travel, hotel, and meal costs, you have spent FAR more than what you’ve listed. If you do these calculations, I would bet you’ve LOST money, not made any (net profit, that is).

  Also, you should ask your upline Platinum and above how much they make on tools, because it is coming out of YOUR pocket, as well as your downlines’ pocket.

  You THINK all of these tools are optional, but try dropping them and see how much support you get from your upline, even though they are required to support you whether you buy their “optional” tools.

  You’re being scammed and don’t even know it, just like your upline would like you to think. LOL

  And your poor spelling not only reflects negatively on you, but it makes your posts hard to read, so “guest” needs a clue as well. LOL

• Corrrection & clarification: You THINK all of these tools are optional, but try dropping them and see how much support you get from your upline, even though they are required to support you whether you buy their “optional” tools or not. I and many others have learned that through personal experience.

• IF MY POSTS ARE HARD TO READ DON’T READ THEM!!!

  Okay so my 200pv I make a month are because like you said I was thought to believe I had to make 150pv.
  So there for that’s what I told my down line and we all believe the same. So that is the reason with 11 poeple in my group I’m able to make it to 15%…..
  So all I got to say to that is thank god my uplines lied to me! Or I would have needed 100 people just to get to 15% if we were all making 50pv a month.

  About me spending more money than I’m making with amway…… no not really, to go on to any convention seminar or what ever, all the money I use doesn’t come from my jobs check nor my amway check. So if I have two checks that pay my bills how am I lossing money? I pay for my trips, education, and fun from my direct sales so that I don’t take out money from the checks I need to pay my every day bills.

  And about my uplines (emerals, and up) making money of off me and my down lines, well guess what, someone is gonna do it! If I buy all my books from a book store guess who is making a profit, not me, the book store is. So if my uplines are spending their time making cds, buying books to sale to us, and are the once promoting everything than someone has to pay them for all the work. IT DOEST MATER WHERE OR WHO I BUY THEM OFF OF THEY WILL ALWAYS BE MAKING SOMETHING OFF OF ME!!!! So the only way to actualy fight this is to get to emeral and start making money my self. And buy the way, I have a few people in my down lines that don’t speak spanish and my emerals told me I would have to creat a system for them because they don’t have one right now, so yes they said to make one.

  Are you some kind of book store owner and you are pissed off you book sales have dropped and some else is taking your profit?

• IF MY COMMENTS ABOUT POINTING OUT YOUR ERRORS MAKES YOU FEEL BAD DON’T READ THEM!!!

  As I said, your upline is lying to you about the required PV. If you don’t want your business to last very long, try to get your downline to buy 500 PV/month, with the side benefit you’ll go Silver sooner, but probably won’t hold it together long enough for Platinum!

  However, that is a small lie compared to the Amway Tool Scam. If your function money doesn’t come from your jobs check or amway check, where DOES it come from? I doubt you added up all your costs to come to the conclusion your direct sales pays for ALL of your overhead costs.

  If you lived in the UK or India, your uplines would be breaking rules to make any or much money (respectively) from the tools, so no, someone is NOT gonna do it if the government tells them they have to run an honest business or get kicked out!

  Your assumption they have to charge what they do for the tools is FALSE. If the only solution you see is to grow your business so you can rip off others, go for it, but know we’re coming after you and your fellow LCKs.

  Interesting how you have to develop another tool system for non-Spanish speaking folks. Do you realize many more English speaking people know about the Amway Tool Scam, thanks to the internet? LOL

  I’m not a book store owner. Part of my life and the lives of millions of others have been stolen, as well as a lot of money, because Amway doesn’t run an honest business. THAT’S why I’m pissed off.

• They don’t make me feel bad that’s why I’m not the one bitching about them. You ask questions ,I anwer.

  We are not in the uk or india so get over it. If the have been doing this since the 50s and it was wrong why hasn’t it been stopped?

  And if all this non-spanish speakers know about this so called “scam” why do the keep joining?

  And yes we are all encouraged to make as many pvs as we can so I my self have mede past 500pvs and iv had some of my down lines do the same.
  Every thing on our amway welcom paket says 150 so that’s what I have been doing it works it easy end of story.

  I chose to buy tools from people I know and have them make a profit off me than going out lookin for the book myself.

  I don’t understand why they shouldn’t charge for the tools they also have to buy.

• You answer with incorrect “facts.”

  Why did it take so long for Bernie Madoff to be caught? Why has no country that I know of looked at this issue and not make major changes?

  I never said “all,” I said “many more.” They join, and either find out the facts about the ATS and quit, or run out of money and quit. But less of them are joining all the time and more of them are finding out the facts before they run out of money, except for the stupid ones. LOL

  Of course you’re told to buy as much PV as you can, so why not go for 500 PV/month? LOL

  I never said they shouldn’t charge for the tools, I said they shouldn’t make as much money as they do from the tools, and therefore should charge far LESS for the tools, among other ideas. I suggest you read the entire first thread here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/

• “Why has no country that I know of looked at this issue and not make major changes?”

  Maybe what you call the Amway Tool Scam isn’t illegal.

  Maybe selling overpriced crap to delusional dreamers might seem wrong, but what laws are they breaking?

  Religions rake in billions selling the dream that some imaginary man will let them live forever in paradise.

  The gov’t sells lottery tickets to a gazillion dreamers who will never win.

  People make billions selling diet books and diet plans and America keeps getting fatter. Health clubs sell memberships knowing 90% will never come back after a couple of months.

  The fact is, there are lots of sleazy industries that exist but aren’t necessarily illegal or technically “scams”

  Maybe that’s why you can’t get law enforcement to do anything because Amway and Amway tool sellers not breaking any laws.

• It’s illegal in the UK and India, and if the appropriate authorities (FTC) did their job, it would be illegal here as well.

  You should read up on the Pokorny lawsuit, and there’s a similar one in Canada as well. Amway offered a reported $155 million and the judge has turned them down, twice.

  Just because there are other practices you don’t agree with doesn’t make the ATS legal.

• “thank god my uplines lied to me! Or I would have needed 100 people just to get to 15% if we were all making 50pv a month”

  Wow… so you are happy that your upline lies to you, and that your downline( who are not making much money, if any, because of few or no legs) have also been lied to?

• Explorer, rverdin, I’m guessing they didn’t lie, you’re just looking at different interpretations of “need to” or “have to”.

  You don’t “need to”, as in required by the rules, but you do “need to” as experience (and statistics) shows you need to be generating at least that sort of volume personally if you want to actually build a successful Amway business.

• This is tapespeak that his/her upline spouts all the time, and they are falling right into the trap by repeating it and thinking they are smart. They will soon find out the truth, and probably slink off into the background….

• Here comes ibofb, slicing and dicing as usual. He “ignores” the FACT that yet another IBO was lied to, as well as his entire downline. ibofb also ignores the other issues raised, particularly the ATS. Then he accuses ME of being “not well.” LOL

• anyway, where ever I buy my tools someone will always make money off me.

  So I’m just gonna sitt back and read your angry comments about amway. While I keep making money

• The question isn’t whether someone makes money from your tool purchases, the question is HOW MUCH money they make and the implications of that.

  You still haven’t answered the question whether you are actually making a net profit, but that’s okay, ignorance is bliss.

  Please rub it in when you make Emerald. I’ll be the one NOT holding my breath. LOL

• ibofghtback,

  revedin’s personal experience is not subject to anyone’s philosophical, analytical, or speculative breakdown of what truely happened….he is sharing his experience with us.

  “Okay so my 200pv I make a month are because like you said I was thought to believe I had to make 150pv.
  So there for that’s what I told my down line and we all believe the same”…”thank god my uplines lied to me! “

• explorer … sure, and I’m sharing my experience and perspective. In terms of what actually happened, or at least from the perspective of the upline, the description of his perspective is in no way incompatible with mine.

• And I share my facts and experience. I don’t play word games like ibofb likes to do, I tell the story straight and honest. His way has scammed millions of people for several decades for 10s of billions of dollars. My way has protected an unknown, but growing, number of people from being scammed.

• re: IBOFigthback? What experience? IBOFightback hasn’t built the Amway business in over ten years. His experience is outdated and irrelevent.

• ibofb’s experience was outdated 10 years ago. He’s a liar.

• “If the have been doing this since the 50s and it was wrong why hasn’t it been stopped?”

  I don’t know if I am going to have much time to be posting from here on, because I have a project to work on coming up…but I would like to say this regarding the above comment by reverdin:

  In a previous post, answering a question by ibofbk about how many ibo’ s I had encounter, I said I had encounter a couple ibo’s within the last 3 years.

  I am going to be a little more open here, an say that while it is true that I have encounter a couple ibo’s within the last three years, I actually know many ibo’s from years back (about 11+ years), some who joined many years ago, while other are newly joined. In fact, a couple of people from my country have gone up to the diamond level, and people from there (my country) talk a lot about them and how they became successful in a short period of time. On the other end, I also know of ibo’s who are trying to fallow in the footsteps of those diamonds, working the business, all within different time frames in which they have been working as ibos, ranging from 1 to 11 years, but never ended up achieving this level; in fact, some of those ibos have become the subject of jokes as well an example of why not to get in the business—people will say “do you want to end up like…?” and they say the names. I also know of ibos who have enter and left within a short period of time.

  As I said before, Amway can be a lucrative business depending on the people you are targeting as well as how saturated with ibo’s a market is. Other factors that I can think of–such as your charisma, sales abilities, Amway’s reputation, and the targeted group previous experience with Amway–also play a role. The Latin America market, until recently, was “virgin”, for the most part, in the sense that Amway had not yet penetrated this market to the degree that it has now—at least as far as I could see with the people from my own ethnicity.

  A few years ago, I remember reading blogs about Amway lack of growth in North America with even possible decline in this region. At the same time, however, I was seeing growth, but in the Hispanic people. At that time it made me suspect that the lack of growth bloggers were seeing was based, perhaps, on previous figures when the Hispanic growth had not yet kicked in. A previous post by Tex here, where he points out (can’t remember his source) that most of the people qualifying are of Hispanic or Asian decent, gave strength to my suspicion that North American growth was boosted in great part by the Hispanic population leaving here in the US and Canada.

  I believe that Amway is taking its lasts breaths in the Hispanic and Asian people, and when it loses its enchantment on them, it will go on a steep decline, this to happen within a one to a few years. What do you think?

• I meant it could be a very lucrative opportunity, but for about 1% of the ibos of course

• I agree. My goal is to make it happen sooner rather than later, which means less people will be ripped off. My source was Amway’s own magazine: http://www.achievemagazine.com

• Fuck Amway and fuck all you idiots commenting on Amway

• The idea is to EDUCATE people about Amway, not simply dismiss Amway. Otherwise, the upline will merely label you as “broke loser” and be able to scam others.

• Great thoughts you have there Explorer. The expansion of Amway into the Hispanic/Asian communities is necessary for any business looking to grow (such as the economic boom that is happening in China). However, in this case, I agree with you (and hope) that this is the last struggle for Amway before it sinks in the water. Amway dying = less people loosing money.

  rverdin, congratulations for being one of the few, in all of the various MLMs, to be making a net profit. Now, I have studied and been on enough forums to hear many claims like yours. I ask one thing from you, and you definitely don’t have to provide it, but there is nothing more solid to back up a claim than proof. You say you have been in the business 7 months now, so this is your first tax year running your own business. Soon, you will have to prepare a Schedule C for the business, listing your total costs, expenses and income. I have always asked this from “successful” entrepreneurs in MLMs (and many others like me have asked for) but never received one.

  Yes, your tax information is between you and the IRS. But when investors look at businesses to evaluate, those businesses must provide financial documents to prove their profitability. Now I ask, do you accept my request?

• Explorer – you mention reading blogs about a “lack of Amway growth” in North America. Be careful what you read. Many of those blogs are run by the same person, and he’s often stating things like that and usually completely wrong!

  There’s been a couple of years in the past decade or so when North American sales decreased, both were preceded by Amway kicking out a significant group of leaders (TIF and TEAM), who took many of the group with them to other ventures. All businesses have there are ups and downs, some self-inflicted, some as a result of general economic conditions. Amway is no different.

  Yes, there’s plenty of new Hispanic leaders. Also many with Korean background. Also many whose families have been in the US for generations. Amway North America is enjoying double digit growth, a step decline in one to two years? I’ve been reading claims like that for years.

  Heck, back in the early 80’s a Diamond by the name of Robert Stonelake sold his business because there was a slump and he thought the Amway ride was all over. That business is now one of the largest and most profitable businesses in the world and includes some of the biggest Amway businesses in North America and the World.

  Mi nombre se – you are correct that “when investors look at businesses to evaluate, those businesses must provide financial documents to prove their profitability”. I must have missed where rverdin was offering his business for sale?

• ibofb,

  How more smarmy could you be? Mi nombrre se wasn’t asking whether rverdin’s business was for sale, he was asking for evidence of rverdin making a net profit. You know, the central question you refuse to answer? LOL

• Be careful about what ibofb says. He has no credibility and struggles with honesty:

  http://www.amquix.info/steadson_amway_zealot.html

  http://network21amway.blogspot.com/2011/04/truth-about-amway.html

• No, Steve, I don’t struggle with honesty at all. Being honest is easy for me, it’s my natural state of being. I struggle with dishonesty – such as that exhibited by you and others on sites you like to promote.

• ibofb,

  Why don’t you open up the lies jc committed when he said he didn’t post on the World Sex Guide?

• The personal issues of ibofightback, joecool and tex aside, from what I’ve read here, the Amway business opportunity is questionable at best. If I understand the discussion correctly, only a few can be successful while the bottom of the pyramid IBO’s churn and churn and lose money. It looks like the IBO’s on top of the pyramid and the ones who sell the tools are the real winners and the rest are just participants in a lose lose situation.