IS AMWAY A SCAM?

1,020 thoughts on “IS AMWAY A SCAM?”

• (1) There’s no “if” about it, the names of virtually all, with photographs, are published.
  (2) Those new platinums are all from Amway North America. Only in-market volume counts towards platinum qualification, so all there volume is North American market volume, not international
  (3) Like most businesses you don’t go from zero to some significant number over night, they’re usually built over years. Having said that, double digit growth multiple years in a row is “skyrocketing” growth for a 52 yr old company in the retail industry.
  (4) The “it’s all from price rises” claim is just more BS made up by probably the biggest anti-Amway BS’er out there. Even ignoring the fact there’s not been many price rises (some, but also some price drops), the new platinums is evidence enough of that, as the PV/BV ratio system adjusts for inflation.

• @ibfbk
  My statement is based on statistics that are not a secret–the ones given by Amway of the 2005 study where they reported that less than 1% are in the Diamond or platinum level, according to Wikipedia.

  If, you believe that those statics are not accurate, or that Wikipedia is not a credible source, let me know and why, and I’ll look in to it or go to Amway’s source…but if you know that does numbers were truly given by Amway, why the trouble?

  I used the word “apparently”, because I am trying to be honest enough that in light of those statistics, I still give Amway a small benefit of doubt that perhaps there is another level under platinum that make some significant volume—if there is let us know as well, there is nothing wrong with knowing the truth.That is what we are trying to stablish.

  ibofbk says:” always nice to prepend “apparently” to made up statistics”

  —->The word “apparently” is never used to make up statistics, it’s just a word for stating how thing appear to be; in my case, how thing appear to be in light of the statistics.

  Notice how I used the word “apparently” even in light of statistcs, but notice how you use the word “fact” without statistic:

  In trying to establish that the majority of the people who registered as IBO are not working the business, you made the following statement here on November 8th,2011:

  Ibofbk ” From past encounters, critics like Tex and Robert FitzPatrick seem to ignore the fact that the majority of registered IBOs are more like me than JoeCool “

• How do you leap from 1% are platinum or above to 99% are not generating business volume?

  You do realise that many people who join direct selling enterprises, including Amway, do so with the goal of extra income, not to replace their full-time incomes?

  Not to mention (again) that it takes time to develop a business so many can be working as a business with the goal of platinum but haven’t yet developed it to that stage?

  Out of interest, what experience in founding/operating a business have you had?

• Definition of hypocrite:

  (in response to my asking what his goal was in Amway)
  ibofightback on November 9th, 2011 8:53 pm
  …At present I’m “in Amway” primarily because I want the products, I have no “Amway goal” apart from placing orders when I want something, and getting it.

  ibofightback on December 23rd, 2011 6:59 am
  …If all you’re wanting to do is buy an occasional box of SA8 then why would you be an IBO? It makes no sense. Explorer, it sounds to me like you think Amway is primarily some kind of shopping club?

• Ahh, no.

  I think what you just defined was “ignorance”. Your ignorance. Apparently you are unaware of this fact, but Amway has a lot more products than just SA8 – and I buy a lot more products than just SA8.

• I recently joined in with the Amway company, back in November to be exact and this past month I made $153. Out of that I only got a $50 bonus for reaching the first goal, and because of that bonus I got $10 on top of the retail profit I made which comes to $93, in that first month I didn’t sponsor anybody. I realize that Amway isn’t a get rich quick scheme nor is it a pyramid because I still made money without having to sponsor people. I only spent $50 on samples to try out myself, which has a 6 month money-back guarantee even if I use up all the products. I’m not wasting my money when I buy these products because I already use them on a regular basis, I wash my clothes, my dishes, clean my house, drink energy drinks, and take vitamins. I would normally buy these products at Walmart, but instead I’m switching to Amway because their products work better for me. I only joined because I wanted and needed the extra 150 bucks its given me in my first month. I’ve already gained back what I spent to join which was about as expensive as joining samsclub or costco. Amway isn’t for everybody and I don’t hassle my friends into it if they aren’t interested, once they’ve told me they aren’t looking I move on and we are still friends afterwards. The sole purpose for my joining Amway was to make some extra money and I’ve done that, if I move upwards in the business by increasing my customer base and by giving others the same opportunity, to make extra money, then I do. Why can’t people strive for bigger and better things in the world? Isn’t that the American Dream, to move up in life? Amway is just a different avenue to that American Dream, why degrade their choice to go about it that way? I have four avenues to the success, I so desire. All of which are credible and involve lots of hard work. Amway is one of those avenues.

  Sincerely
  an honest hardworking american

• I think ibofbk is twisting the truth. Even with new platinums, that means nothing in the big picture of things. If Amway north america has 500,000 IBO’s and they raise prices by 20%, if these IBO’s only buy the exact same things they were already buying, that can be a significant amount of growth for Amway without adding any new IBO’s.

• @■kmw0218, How much did you spend on the Amway goods and did you check to see how much it would cost to get similar products at Von’s or WalGreen’s?

• Guest (aka JoeCool I suspect?),

  If Amway raised prices 20% it would not create any new platinums. Platinum qualification is based on PV (points volume) which rarely changes even with price changes. New platinums only come from new business generating new PV.

  But yes, raising prices 20% would give dollar sales growth, as would raising prices 1000%. So what? Just hypotheticals that are the same for any business. They didn’t raise prices either 20% or 1000%, so what’s your point?

• for all the people complaining about amway being a scam an a pyrmid sceem! the only reason you guys are complaining about it is because you have always been in the bottom of one!/ your job/ an everything you do!!!??????????????

• Uriah, you are admitting that Amway is a pyramid sceem (sic)? My job is not a pyramid. My boss helps me to do my job better but my job isn’t a pyramid. Amway is called a pyramid becoz the guys on top making the money are raking it in from the “downlines” who do all the selling.

• @ibofbk,

  I think that the lack of clarity was in using a term such as “business volume”. More important than business volume, is a “profitable business volume”. Here are three scenarios.

  1.) An IBO who joins to consume only because he likes the products—business volume is not important, he is not there to work the business, nothing wrong with that.

  2.)An IBO who consumes amway products thinking he is going to save money—He/she has more opportunity to save by buying even from Amazon. Am not sure how much cheaper Sams Club or Costco would be than Amazon.

  3.)An IBO who joins to work the business—Profitable business volume becomes highly important, since he joined to do business. For a group of items serving the same purpose, if in Amway he is paying $33/month more than what he used to pay through his former shopping habits, and he only receives $30 worth of points for personal and down line consumption, than he’s $30/month business income is an illusion. The situation can become worse if he spends lots of money on gas, car maintenance, clothing and motivational tools. He also may be liable to the IRS, and his tax preparation fees are likely to increase for self employment. However, if he is making $1,000/ month, than that could be a profitable business volume.

  According to some statistics you mentioned in an earlier post, about 78% of IBOs don’t get group commission, due to lack of legs. You attributed this to them not working the business and renewing only because they like the products. Given the fact that there is motivational organization for Amway that do hold meeting, create motivational tools, etc.; given the fact that there have been IBOs who left amway to talk about the tool system; and given the fact that the easiest way (and in practice, probably the only way) to make it to platinum/emerald/diamond is to sign ibos under you and motivate them to do the same; do you think it is possible that the reason some, most–or perhaps almost all of these IBOs–renew, is not merely because they like the products, but because they are “fired up” with the dream, and that they are actually working the business but have not been able to find willing prospects?

  For the record though, I also would like to say that Amway has some things I do like: They promote organic farming, although they don’t fallow all the way thru in the sense that they do add synthetic components to some of their products (this part I don’t like). I believe that we should become an organic society as much as possible. Another thing I like about Amway is that they don’t promote animal experiments (according to Peta I believe)–however, not sure if they are still holding this philosophy since someone pointed out that they actually do experiment on animals, and he gave a different site other than peta.org. Also, although it seems to me it would be hard to sell amway products, I do believe that they provide an opportunity for retail sales specially for courtiers whose markets are not yet well developed. And there is nothing wrong with a person trying to make a living by honestly selling products; great respects for a person who is trying to make a living this way—if somebody wants to buy it, there is nothing wrong with somebody supplying it

• @Aha! – the so-called “downline doing all the selling” are, in effect, buying the stuff from the “guys at the top”. That’s how they got “at the top”, because they sell more stuff than the “guys at the bottom”. In light of this, your comment makes no sense.

• @explorer –
  point 2 is incorrect – I cannot get products like SA8 or Nutrilite cheaper at Sam’s clubs, CostCo or Amazon. My fiancee can’t get Artistry (or even Artistry quality competitors) cheaper at thouse outlets

  Re point 3 – (a) business volume is business volume, Profitability is a different (though obviously related) issue, and for that you take in to account both income and expenses. Strictly speaking the bonus he receives back on personal purchases is not an income, it’s merely a rebate or discount. That income doesn’t even have to be declared for tax purposes. Bonuses on downline volume does.

  (b) only around 30% of IBOs ever attend one of these “motivational” events or purchase “motivational” products, less than 10% do so regularly. Yet Amway’s overall renewal rate is over 50%, so no your thesis not possible.

  (c) Amway uses synthetics where to do so is supported by the science. Nutrilite’s motto is “Best of Science. Best of Nature”. In some cases for example it’s physically impossible to create a tablet small enough to consume while maintaining levels of a nutrient that are proven to be important and just using plant concentrates. Plant concentrates are the first choice though.

  (d) In some cases (thankfully fewer and fewer as time goes on, not even sure if is still the case) Government’s *require* animal testing to prove a products safety. That is the only time Amway ever does it, only because they’re forced to in order to be in that market segment. They could withdraw from that segment, but that would leave consumers with one fewer option that is doing the minimal testing possible.

  (e) It’s not hard to sell Amway products, the only thing that stops most people is fear. Heck, I sold my first Amway product when I was about 12. My mum (who was not a distributor) bought a small product for cleaning glasses. I was wearing glasses at the time and it was fantastic, I showed it to some friends and they all asked me to get some for them, and I did and sold it to them. Most people who have been in Amway for any length of time, and other people know it, will tell you that people contact you and ask to buy stuff. Happened to us just a few months ago. A friend (who buys stuff off us whenever she wants things) told us a friend had just immigrated in, saw she had Amway stuff (Nutrilite actually), asked as where she got it, she said from us, the friend called us and she now buys stuff regularly. When we ran our small group Skin Care or Nutrition meetings (we educated people about issues in the area, then offer Nutrilite’s solutions) we *always* made a sale. Always. Never didn’t. Pretty much the same for our active IBOs. It’s really not hard to sell at all. Indeed it’s my opinion you actively have to go out of your way *not* to have customers.

• I wish to start out with a simple and easy to understand statement which I wish all of you to keep in mind:

  I AM NOT AFFILIATED WITH AMWAY IN ANY WAY.

  I do not sell their products, I do not have a buisness with them.

  Obversely, I have profited $78,000 net this year as my income.
  for some reason no one else has been open enough to share personal details of themselves.

  Amway is a great buisness model. It makes sense. So does communism.

  The issue is people do not realize how to make it work. Amway as well as Communism both preach a “Utopic” end result.

  It is possible to make huge ammounts of money with Amway, I would advise trying it out. It is possible to be immenslly sucssessfull. The dificult part is understanding that it will take time, and it will take effort.

  I survived the recesstion. My stock portfoilo is better than ever. I do not credit Amway. I did not need Amway. My nieghbor and FRIEND is in Amway. He is doing just as well as I am Finacially. He started two years ago. His Thanksgiving dinner party was amazing, he did not try to sell anything, infact, Amway was never mentioned and 90% of the people there were not involved in Amway. His familly still loves him, his friends still invite him to go bowling, and I still enjoy “glistor” every morning when brushing my teeth, which I get from him.

  To everyone considering AMWAY:
  Do it, It is a great opportunity if you are willing to let it be. But just be cautious not to invest too much in the begining on books, tapes, ect… That is where you will fail.

  To All The CRITIQUES:
  Are you worth over $1Billion? No, Then Amway has succeded at being more successful then you so I do not feel you have room to talk. When your stock portfoilo has $2,000,000 in assests, then you can feel free to ask and I will allow you to speek with my nieghbor who is considering retirement due to the Supposed Amway “ponzi” scheem.

  Thank you and please feel free tom ask and I will point you in the right direction of your nearest Amway representitive.

• I believe that at to this point I have said what I needed to say regarding my opinion about Away. The point of the subjects I discussed still stand.

  One last request, though, can you please provide a credible source for the statistics that you gave (point b)? It is well know that a person who talks about a subject/product in which he has and interest, or has something to gain by his statement, faces credibility issues…I say this because I think you partly got your statistics from the following:

  ibofbk said: “I heard Jim Dornan, who has one of the largest Amway networks in the world, and also owns one of the largest training companies, say recently that people in attendance at seminars typically represent less than 10% of the people actually registered in his organization”

  Now, as I said before, I am not against nor with amway. I just simply have many question like many of the people here trying to learn the truth about amway; and to learn the truth, sometimes you have to ask the hard questions. And what better than to ask the a well know amway defender to get the other side of the story?

  The points that I made above are valid. In your refutation, you ignore the central point of the fundamental issues in them and diverted them (whether intentionally or unintentionally). you did clarify the issue about personal points been seen as rebate, but the central point made remains the same–the topic was no longer about mrely business volume, but the importance of a profitable business volume. Point #1, I never mention anything about buying Amway products in amazon. But I am not going to take the time and clarify 1-3 even more—I tried to make them clear from the beginning.

  Good luck to all…

• @Explorer, I can’t imagine anything Dornan would gain through that statement, particularly when it’s made to a group of people for whom it’s truth or otherwise is self-evident (ie they are the statistic)

  In any case ask virtually *any* IBO that has built an organisation of larger than say, 50 people, heck, even 10 or 20, and they will confirm it. The vast majority of people do pretty much nothing. IBO organisations also provide statistics about what “healthy” Amway businesses look like, including upper goals on how many people should be attending seminars etc for certain total group sizes. I have this information for two organisations and both report similar numbers.

  I’m not sure where people get the idea that everyone who joins Amway goes to all these meetings. The reality of minority active participation is no different to virtually any other voluntary organisation, why do people like yourself have this, frankly bizarre, belief that Amway somehow manages to overcome this?

  You stated “An IBO who consumes amway products thinking he is going to save money—He/she has more opportunity to save by buying even from Amazon”. You now seem to agree you can’t buy these products at Amazon, so why did you even raise the point? What I suspect you don’t “get” is that, in general, Amway products are not the same as other products and have their own unique features and benefits that create demand for them.

  May I ask how many different Amway products you have tried?

  I have not intentionally tried to ignore or divert from any “fundamental issues”, I’ve tried to answer everything as best I could. I suspect that part of the problem is you’re asking questions/making comments that are the functional equivalent of asking me “why are crocodile feathers purple?” and then complaining I won’t answer the question.

  Crocodiles of course don’t have feathers and many of the comments seem to come from positions of fundamental misunderstandings of how Amway works. You’re assuming certain of your beliefs are true and then formulating questions around those beliefs, when what you really need to do is look at the evidence, or lack of, that led to those beliefs in the first place.

• “To All The CRITIQUES:
  Are you worth over $1Billion? No, Then Amway has succeded at being more successful then you so I do not feel you have room to talk. When your stock portfoilo has $2,000,000 in assests, then you can feel free to ask and I will allow you to speek with my nieghbor who is considering retirement due to the Supposed Amway “ponzi” scheem.”

  Joe says: I don;t know of any IBOs who are worth over a billion. If you’re comparing corporate worth, WalMart kicks your butt, so do many other established corporations. If you went by net worth based on Amway earnings, my newspaper boy is worth more than most IBOs.

  Explorer, IBOfightback is the biggest Amway zealot on the planet and will twist and divert everything to make Amway look good. He talks about organizations of 50 or more but the fact is that most IBOs cannot sponsor a single downline. That is a fact. Even if many IBOs “do nothing” (Which suggests there is already a problem), the remaining IBOs who do something still have a miserable rate of achieving any significant kind of income in Amway.

  Amway’s products are not like others you can find in a store. That is so much BS that IBOFB’s eyes are turning brown. Really, there’s no soap or vitamins at WalMart? Virtually anything you get from Amway will be siginifcantly cheaper if you buy a similar product from WalMart or any other big retailer.

  The bottom line is that Amway is a lousy business opportunity which is made worse if you get involved in the training system which does nothing except make a profit for the folks who run the meetings and functions.

  If you simply examine the 6-4-2 plan that is commonly shown, it is one person making decent money with the rest making pennies or taking losses. Factor in that most “do nothing” and you can easily conclude that only a fraction of 1% make any decent money in Amway. Just about anything else you do will net you better results. Heck, sitting on the couch doing nothing is better for most people.

• And IBOFB has a creepy obsession with me and thinks everyone who posts a negative comment about Amway is me and thinks I operate all anti Amway blogs and forums. Ironically, IBOFB was called a cyber bully by an Amway corporate blogger because of some of the creepy things he has done.

• And JoeCool continues the lies. I thought “guest” above might be him because of the similarity of language use. If Joecool would like to offer examples of products of the same class as Nutrilite and Artistry at Walmart, then we can compare.

  As for corporate calling me a bully, that’s false. That was Amway’s response to claims by Joecool that he and his family were being threatened by an IBO (not me). Claims Joecool himself later admitted he at least partly made up. Would you like me to repost up all the copies of your comments etc that you deleted from your blog JoeCool?And of course all your discourse on the world sex guide, myspace and elsewhere that you claimed not to exist? I still do have it all, and if you insist on false accusations against me in a public forum I’ll have little choice but to let people read the full story and make their own conclusion. Is that what you want?

  Oh sorry … am I being a bully now? Because I stand up to real cyberbullies like you?

  How about we just stick to business and you just tell us which Walmart products are in the same class as Nutrilite and Artistry?

• Only Amway IBOs seem to care about whether WalMart sold vitamins has the same perceived “prestige” as Nutrilite. The WalMart sales would indicate that the public doesn’t care. The same can be said for Tide or or WalMart sold laundry detergents. Not saying Amway doesn’t have any decent products, but for most consumers, WalMart is more convenient and is cheaper than most similar Amway products. Whether or not Amway or WalMart products are a better value doesn’t change the fact that Amway is a lousy business opportunity which in made exponentially worse if the IBO becomes fully dedicated to the system of cds, books and functions/

  I didn’t make up the threats. I later discovered who sent me the threat. It was someone who apparently is an IBO in Scarborough Ontario Canada. He still occasionally leaves snide comments on my blog and I wrote a blog entry about it last year. He still leave idle threats at times.

• Happy New Year, everyone.

  FYI Amway ranked high in the December, 2011 UNHAPPY FRANCHISEE 25 ranking both in terms of readership and comments.

  Congratulations, and thanks for commenting. Here’s to a happier 2012!

  See December’s rankings here:
  UNHAPPY FRANCHISEE 25 – December 2011

• @guest

  I spent about 50 bucks. I feel that I’m getting the most for my money when purchasing products from my website. Its benefiting me because I still get the points which propels my business and the products are great. Not everyone agrees with this which is fine. You get yours and I’ll get mine. This business opportunity is just the way I plan to go about getting mine. Its not going to happen over night, its network marketing. That takes time building up a customer base and a properly structured team. I’m not just out to achieve my dreams. I’m also out to help others achieve theirs. You and others have just filtered yourselves out, which is exactly what should happen cause not everyone’s made for network marketing.

  I hope you all achieve everything you want out of life because its what the American Dream is all about. Cheers to the New Year!

• I finally decided to search the web after being out of Amway now since February 2011. I was hesitant to do so because I had been told not to so many times by my uplines that there is negative on the internet even about Mother Teresa. That was the “line” that they used to trick me into not doing my research. I am a college graduate with a bachelors degree in accounting and I was taught to always research a company to learn more about them if you are going to be involved with them. Anyways, I am glad that I did because I now realize that I am not the only one who disagrees with Amway and their approaches to “the business”.

  A little more background about my situation which I’m sure is not unique to many others who have been in Amway. My girlfriend and I were introduced to this business by a friend of my girlfriend and her husband. From the presentation that was shown to me I thought that it sounded VERY easy to do. I was told that I only needed 3 friends out of my 200 contacts in my phone to want to save money and make money at the same time. That was the first lie that I later found out. First of all, we didnt save any money. We threw away over $7000 and saw under $300 return. How exactly am I saving money? Secondly, IF, IF you get (trick) 3 friends to signed up, you have alot more work to do than that. Try 50 people and by the time u get 50 people involved, 48 of those will have quit once they finally realize that you took advantage of them and weren’t straight forward with them.

  So Time went on and I hung around and observed the behaviors of people in Amway and how they talked. I said to myself, I want to be nothing like these people. They all sounded the same to me and it was just a little weird. Finally I realize that they have all been brainwashed how to think, how to spend their money, who they spend their time with, and how they spend their time. Amway with the help of the “EDUCATION” has completely taken control of the lives of many, many naive, weak minded, gullible, ignorant, or too trusting (you fill in the blank) individuals who worship their upline like they are God. Sure I thought it was cool that I knew a millionaire and got to hang out at his house and all, but Im not going to empty my bank account for anyone! How about this line…”You don’t make money FROM your friends when they get involved, Your making money WITH your friends”. WHAT?!? Last time I checked anyone you sponsor in the business, you collect their business volume from the stuff they buy and get a kickback from those purchases. I believe that’s called making money FROM your friends. They have another sneaky tactic that they use to conceal the truth. “You’re not making money from your friends, Amway is paying you for driving volume to their website. Ok, Yeah that’s still making money from your friends. Im not an idiot and your blender of words and phrases don’t have any effect on me.

  Back to November 2010, I got married to my girlfriend I was in the business with and shortly after she became an Ambot as I’ve heard people refer to it. In February 2011, i had enough of it and decided to cut my loses and get out. My wife didn’t share the same thoughts and feelings though because she had been soaking in every last drop of the expensive “Education” we were receiving. Up until the point of me getting out of the business since I had known her, we NEVER had an argument. We were inseparable and much in love. That all changed as time progressed. We started disagreeing and this horrible person came out of her as I never seen before. She physically hit me on 3 occasions and we would fight, mostly her, as I like to be calm and collective. I rather reason things out by gathering the facts and explaining my perspective. Her reasoning went out the door with her mind because everything out of her mouth was something about the business.

  I spent many nights home alone waiting for her to get back from those stupid waste of time meetings. Eventually in October I had enough. We got in another fight and she asked me to leave, so I did! Now supposedly when a woman says leave, that means dont leave in translation, but I took it at face value and left. We are currently separated and in the process of filing for a dissolution. I never thought Amway could destroy a marriage like that, but I’ve read so many sad stories where has done just that. Like I said, I’m sure my story isn’t a unique one, but I just wanted to share in hopes that I can TRULY HELP people steer clear of this plague. Not only will it empty your bank account, waste time you could be living your life and enjoying the company of family and true friends, it will destroy your relationships with the ones you love. These people that were in our business call themselves Christians, yet they can easily let a marriage be destroyed and not even flinch. Greed and lies are all I see in these people!

  I would like to sit my wife down and show her some information so maybe, just maybe she will snap out of it, but I feel like she is so programmed at this point that I won’t be able to get her to read it. If anybody actually reads my entire story (I know its long) and has any advice on getting her out let me know. I got nothing to lose at this point since I’ve pretty much lost the love of my life.

• “DoAsISay” – First of all, sorry to hear about your marriage problems. Regarding your experiences, you claim to have researched Amway, and even been an IBO, but your whole post begins as if you actually have no idea how Amway works. Much of the stuff you claim to have been told sounds like stuff you were told by your sponsor and/or upline, not by Amway. It was *their* “approach to the business” you disagreed with – as do I, and in fact as does Amway, which you can see by simply reading the Business Opportunity Brochure you should have been given when you joined and which you should have been giving to everyone you approached about the business.

  No business succeeds long-term by “tricking” people, whether it be an Amway IBOship or any other venture. Any IBOs operating the way you experienced will predictably fail. Amway itself on the other hand is going in to it’s 53rd year.

  Just to be clear *I agree with you* in that what you describe is a terrible way to do business. But that’s not how most people operate their Amway businesses, not how I was taught to run an Amway business, and it’s not the way Amway wants people to operate an Amway business. Unfortunately you’re not the only one to experience it either, it’s a common story from those who have complaints. There’s a lesson in that both for Amway and the groups doing it.

• IBOFB has no credibility. DoasIsay sounds like he was trained by one of the AMOs. Probably WWDB or maybe even Network 21. Even if he wasn’t Taught” by Amway, Amway knows this stuff goes on and they don’t do squat. One of their IBOAI members was caught on tape telling people they could make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month, with no consequences. They teach you so much crap that your eyes trun brown. Ironically, some groups like WWDB teach you that Amway saves marriages. What a joke. IBOFB is in denial and thinks these kinds of things never happen. He likes to claim that Amway is changing and things are different now. It is testimony like that that provides evidence, no proof that some AMOs as as abusive as ever. Amway accreditation is a joke and the AMO kingpins are still using and abusing their downline.

  IBOFB likes to use that convenient loophole that “it’s not Amway”. Sorry, but until Amway corrects some of their IBO leader’s behavior, it is (rightfully) that the Amway name is associated with pyramid, scam and ripoff.

• DoasIsay, it is sad but there isn’t really much you can do. Once someone buys in and believes, it is hard to convince them otherwise. I wish you well. It is also important for you to understand that it isn’t your fault.

  It’s not the way Amway wants people to run their business but they sit back, say “fiddle dee dee” and do nothing about the groups that conduct business this way. I was in WWDB and this is what happened quite often. It happened in the 1990’s and it is still happening in some groups today.

• Joecool, could you please explain how you are privy to Amway’ and the IBOAI’s internal dispute and disciplinary actions?

  Clearly you must know what happens in private meetings, since you claim there were “no consequences” to someone’s statements. (a statement btw, which is true, even if more than a little hyperbolic).

  Please, tell us how you *know* this stuff?

  Or is this perhaps one of things you “know”, like your claim I “think these kinds of things never happen”, when in the very comment you’re replying to I acknowledge they do!

• Amway’s failure to ackowledge formal complaints is evidence enough for me that nothing was ever said or done. No to mention the violator has been teaching the same garbage for over a decade. Are you saying Mr. Duncan’s actions are okay in your book?

  http://rocketsrants.blogspot.com/2011/09/amway-guys-they-sure-say-stuff.html

  Why you defend Amway and unethical Amway leaders ad nauseum is beyond me.

• BTW, even though the evidence is circumstantial, that evidence is still substantial in my opinion.

• That’s all you’ve got JoeCool?

  A 3 to 4 year old camera phone video of a personal, informal conversation in a hallway, of someone saying something that (a) isn’t against the rules (b) been proven possible numerous times and (c) is something Duncan himself has likely done (most qualified Crowns would make over 2 million a year from their global Amway income alone)

  That’s something you want Amway to take “formal action” against?

  Really?

• So you’re saying that it’s perfectly okay for an IBOAI member to be saying stuff like that? And it’s okay for Amway to not even acknow;edge a complaint? This is the kind of stuff that makes Amway look like a scam. Is this something you condone? You’re as bad as the unethical leaders. You know it’s wrong but since it’s Amway you defend it.

  Being that much income from these big bigs come in the form of an ANNUAL bonus, it’s very unlikely that they make hundreds of thousands a month each month, even though they may imply it. .

• Yes it’s perfectly OK for someone to tell someone they can do what they and other people have done, especially in a private conversation.

  You think that is unethical and evidence of a scam? That says more about you than anything else.

  The largest bonuses for large long time leaders are typically ones that are paid monthly, not yearly (eg depth). Care to share some evidence of your ignorance of how Amway works.

• So let me clrairy so we can memorialize this. You think it’s perfectly okay for Amway leaders to imply to rank and file IBOs that they can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars?

  Gee, why doesn’t Amway just publish that? I’m sure it would be great for attracting and retaining IBOs.

  I don’t have to know how all the Amway bonuses work, nor do the rank and file IBOs because so few people ever receive those bonuses.

  What has your guru like knowledge of Amway netted you? A few rolls on dimes? LOL

• Thanks for the reply Joecool. I realize from previous posts that IBOFB is in denial about Amway and its credibility as a company. I also can conclude that he may also have some mental issues from the brainwashing he has received over the years of being around ambots. It really is a shame that this sort of business practice can go on so long without being shut down. I have read where the MLM businesses have been sued for being deemed illegal and the only ones to survive though it all were the ones who had millions of dollars or more and highly paid attorney’s fighting against it. The reason these so called leaders teach you not to go on the internet to research Amway yourself is so you don’t find out that you will soon be brainwashed into thinking, talking, acting and eating like all of them and not even realize it. My upline suggested that we eat the food from our business and that’s it. He said to eat 2-3 bars a day and drink 2 drinks from the business. First of all, I only drink water from a faucet which cost me next to nothing. Second, I don’t think it is very healthy to just eat bars with no real food entering your body. Your body needs the nutrients from real fruits, vegetables, meats, dairy, and grains. Something that isn’t going to be supplied by only eating bars. The last thing I want to say about there sub-par products is that whoever pays $45+ for a case of “perfect” water needs some serious help. There is nothing special about that water expect the people who drink it. IBOFB, you want to know how to make more money than you did/do selling Amway? Take your empty perfect water bottles and fill them up with water from a water source, examples could be: faucet, a local stream, or even the next time it rains. This next part is tricky. Tear the label off your bottles and replace with your brand and give it a clever name like “healing water”. I know that wasn’t that clever that’s why your going to make the millions. Sell your water at $40/case because you got to be lower than the competition if you want to sell your product because you and I both know that people are price sensitive and will “usually” buy the cheaper yet comparable product over the other. You are set for life! You now “never have to worry about a dollar bill again”. O yeah, one more thing, that is all just “my opinion”. One thing I learned from the business is that if you put “in my opinion” before or after any statement you make, it’s ok to lie or stretch the truth.

• DoAsISay,

  You’ve apparently put as much effort in to researching me as you did in to Amway – ie not much. If you did then you’d know that I’ve been pretty scathing about Perfect Water since it was launched. Apparently the “brainwashing” hasn’t worked so well!

  As for the credibility of Amway as a company …..

• LOL, IBOFB and his diversion again. We know, it;s not Amway that’s at fault. A nice legal loophole. The IBOs are the one lying and deceiving people. Even though they are “independent” business owners. We know that the billion dollar company Amway. has no way to control the actions of their IBOs.

  IBOFB also likes to brag about Amway’s billion dollar sales, but makes no mention that most IBOs are making practically nothing, and likely losing money if they are participating in the tools systems.

  If he’s not paid to defende Amway as he claims, then he’s very likely brainwashed into thinking Amway is the end all cure all for business.

• Doasisay, I’m glad my blog gave you valuable insight and information. Another satisfied site visitor!

• IBOFBK, regarding your earlier question, I never said you could save money by buying Amway products at Amazon. I meant to say that a person can save money even by purchasing SAME-PURPOSE products at Amazon, rather than becoming an IBO to buy what Amway call their wholesale products. —not looking for a response on this, just clarifying…

• Hey joecool, I like your way of going right to the point.

• Well Explorer, you may not have been looking for a response, but I’m sure you won’t be surprised to have gotten one :).

  If your “point” was that “a person can save money even by purchasing SAME-PURPOSE products at Amazon” then what exactly was your point? The same goes for pretty much anything! You can save money by buying a bicycle instead of a car. Heck you can walk. You can save money by having chickens instead of buying eggs.

  So what’s your point? Amway is bad business because of this? Really?

  As for thinking Joecool get’s “right to the point”, what point is that? More lying? He lies for example when he says I “makes no mention that most IBOs are making practically nothing”. I acknowledge that all the time! Even do so on this very thread.

  Are you really saying you really saying you have a problem with the fact that people not trying to make money are not making money? Really?

  How do you think it should be? People should pay a membership fee and sit back and watch the cash roll in? How do you propose that works?

  I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised, but in fact I am continually surprised at how many people think the problem with Amway is that you have to work hard and get results to make any money.

  And they say Marx is dead.

• IBOFBCK, if it’s true that most IBO’s make practically nothing and you ackowledge it, doesn’t that make Amway a crappy business?

• “If your ‘point’was that ‘a person can save money even by purchasing SAME-PURPOSE products at Amazon’ then what exactly was your point?”

  —>The point is exactly that one, and it was made within the context of my statements, in which I already addressed the possibility at which you are trying to get at—a person becoming an ibo simply because he likes amway products.

  “So what’s your point? Amway is bad business because of this? Really?”

  —–>I never said Amway is a bad or good business. This was in response to you post about business volume, with me emphasizing that a profitable business volume is more important for a business.

  “Are you really saying you really saying you have a problem with the fact that people not trying to make money are not making money? Really?”

  —>A fact? so you know is a fact that they are not trying, you have a special technology that permits you to monitor the 99% of ibos ( about 3million?) who are supposedly sitting on a couch doing nothing? or maybe there is a secrete log of effort/ work history that each ibo is required to keep, giving account of how many people they contacted or did not contacted, how many times they presented the plan, how many times they went on the street prospecting, trying to get business?

• How would that make Amway “a crappy business”? Is exercising a lousy way to get fit because most people who join gyms don’t get fit? Is karate a lousy way to fight because most people who join karate clubs don’t even get to 8kyu, let alone black belt? Is the stock market a lousy opportunity because most people don’t make money?

  If you want to evaluate whether something is a lousy business opportunity, first you need to look at those who operate it as a business, and who do so for long enough to be successful.

  Taking start-up costs in to account, most businesses take many, many years to reach profitability. Even ignoring startup costs many take a year or more to reach breakeven point.

  Successful Amway business owners will tell you it takes at least a year or two of hard work to develop a decently profitable Amway business. People like joecool tried it for well less than a year and then complain it doesn’t work! How does he know? He didn’t try!

  This whole belief that exercise is a bad way to get fit, because most people who say they’re going to start an exercise program don’t get fit is just ridiculous

  And that’s pretty much the exact position you’re taking with Amway.

• A fact? so you know is a fact that they are not trying, you have a special technology that permits you to monitor the 99% of ibos ( about 3million?) who are supposedly sitting on a couch doing nothing? or maybe there is a secrete log of effort/ work history that each ibo is required to keep, giving account of how many people they contacted or did not contacted, how many times they presented the plan, how many times they went on the street prospecting, trying to get business?

  Yes, I have “special techonology”. It’s called computer records, surveys and statistics. According to statistics revealed in TEAM vs Quixtar, half of people who register with Amway in the US never even place an order after registering (which, yes, is a problem in itself). Of those IBOs who answered a survey in 2010 (which would obviously be a sample biased towards those who are “active”), only 46% attempted to make a retail sale or presented the Amway IBO Compensation Plan, or received bonus money, or attended an Amway or IBO meeting.

  Only 46% of people engaged enough to answer a survey did even the barest minimum, one of which includes just buying enough stuff for yourself to earn a bonus. I did that in the US last year and I haven’t even been in the country since 2002! The BERR case in the UK revealed that only 6% of IBOs were trying to make retail sales, something Amway and all major organizations promote as necessary to develop a business income.

  Then you can simple talk to any IBO with any sort of sized group. They’re in contact with their group, they get reports on orders by downline (both for Amway, and if Platinum and above, “tools” via BSM companies).

  And this type of data is all collated by active IBOs and active IBO organizations.

  They’ll all tell you the same thing.

  And it’s all 100% consistent with how people behaviour in virtually every other endeavour of human life!

  So if YOU want to claim that Amway is somehow miraculously different, then YOU are the one who needs to prove this extraordinary claim.

  So yes, I do know that most IBOs are doing squat.

  As for the “99%”, I never gave that number, it’s another one simply made up by MLM critics that (a) has little basis in actual data and (b) starts, in Amway’s case with the ridiculous assumption that you’re not making money until you’re part of a cohort making over $40,000/yr in bonuses alone from a part-time business!

  The product issue we’ve done to death. The only question that matters, as regard to a business opportunity, is whether there’s a market for the products. Unquestionably there is.

• I would say that indeed Amway is a crappy business opportunity where failure is the norm. It is evident by the results. Comparing it to the gym or karate are silly and childish comparisons. Isworking out at the gym or karate lessons a business opportunity? Agreed that some people may not work the business right or may not put forth effort, but that is a fault of th AMway system. These folks who did not do things right or did not work were recruited by other Amway reps. I don’t have a percentage of of failure but I’m sure it’s quite high. 99% might not be right, but I could venture a guess and say it’s close, possibly a variance of 1 or 2%.

  Other established systems such as a franchise would qualify their potential franchisees, teach them, and set them fir success. And success indeed is the norm for established franchises. MLM//Amway promotes the business as cheap and somewhat easy. Thus you get all kinds of jokers to sign up. The miserable success rate is a product of the system.

• Isworking out at the gym or karate lessons a business opportunity?

  Are you really so shallow you can’t see the analogy? Lots of people join an “opportunity” (to get fit, to lose weight, to make money) that has low cost of entry, with very little invested risk, and is easier *not* to do than to do … and lo and behold the majority don’t actually do it.

  A more traditional franchise on the other hand has a high cost of entry, a lot of invested risk, and due to potential penalties is easier to do that not to do.

  Having said that, I agree that MLM business model “gets all kinds of jokers to sign up”. That is both a weakness and a strength of the model, something I addressed in a post last year – The #1 problem with Amway and multi-level marketing.

  Success may be the norm for people who follow the franchising system they join. Success is also the norm for people who follow the Amway system they join.

• I don’t know where you are getting your survey from…I did a quick Google search, and could not find it. The only one I found is the one listed in Wikipedia from 2001, where the number of active IBOs, according to an independent study is 66% not 46% as you say. the 66% number is the same number that Amway uses in their literature from 2011. If Amway regards your survey as credible (and had the OK to list it on their literature without getting in trouble), I see no reason why they will not be using it on their material. So I suspect that you are using an Amway internal study and not an independent credible one. And yes, 66% will be the majority of ibos trying with 78%, as you stated earlier, not even having “legs”

• The data is from an independently run survey, but it is commissioned by Amway. It is presented in the Amway Business Opportunity brochure and other Amway sites. I originally posted about it on my site four months ago – Updated Amway IBO average income statistics, plus an important clarification.

  As already mentioned, the data about not having legs is from statistics produced in affidavits supplied in the TEAM vs Quixtar case in California.

  “66%” or “46%” is not, IBOs who are “trying”. It is IBOs who are defined as “active” by Amway’s criteria. Heck it even includes people like myself who occasionally buy enough stuff to qualify for a rebate, which isn’t hard to do.

  Heck, if I was drinking an XS with some mates watching the football and one goes “hey, this is good” and I say “yeah, wanna buy one?” and they say “maybe … ask me after the game” … and I never do get around to asking, then I’m “active” under that survey.

  Do you really believe that qualifies as “trying” to build a business, and that my (lack) of income is evidence it’s a bad business opportunity?

• All kinds of jokers sign up. Well, when your “opportunity” attracts those types, then you must accept that your failure rate will be high. I don’t see any need to defend this. I believe it to be a fact and a reality of a business where you can sign up and get started for under $500. Certainly only a truly serious business owner will spend say 500K to start an established business like a Mickey Dee’s, but almost anyone might be willing to spend $150 to join Amway. That said, I think a 97 to 99% failure rate is accurate, especially when many sign up and hardly lift a finger. The gym and karate lessons don’t really apply, because even if I did “little”, chances are I still gained something, unlike Amway where doing little probably means I lost money vis a vie sign up fee, or having some business expenses. To sum it up, a business opportunity where that many fail tells me that I would be better served to find some alternative. Cheers!