IS AMWAY A SCAM?

1,020 thoughts on “IS AMWAY A SCAM?”

• I’ve started and sold a number of businesses. I’ve been a franchisee. I’ve been a franchisor. I’ve bought businesses. I’ve been involved in corporate mergers. I’ve advised numerous startups.

  I think I have some knowledge and experience in this area.

  To me, the idea of evaluating a business idea based on the success or, quite obviously, lack of “success”, of people not operating the business idea is just completely and utterly absurd

  The only reason I can see why people would do that is a blatant resort to confirmation bias in order to desperately try and reinforce a pre-existing belief.

• “but it is commissioned by Amway”
  This makes your statistics suspicious and lacking credibility. Companies can play with data to make things look favorable…
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics
  If the data that you are using is credible, why is not even Wikepedia using it, better yet why is Amway not using it in their 2011 new ibo welcoming kit. Are they still using it on their 2012 welcoming kit as well? I will guess so..

• Companies that advertise things like: Make Millions on Ebay! Make Millions on Craigslist! Make Millions on Amazon! Are the same thing as the motivational companies surrounding Amway/Quixtar. Amway/Quixtar is exactly the same business model as Amazon. In fact Amway is generally regarded as the original, so in a way Amazon is a copycat. Amway/Quixtar IBOs (Independent Business Operators) are what internet businesses would call Affiliates. You help advertise and market Amway Global products and receive a residual or commission on the sale of products. You also receive small percentages on those that you help sign up to market and advertise those products or those who actually buy/sell product, and so on and so on. Nobody attacks Amazon’s Affiliate business model in that way, sure they attack Amazon for many other business practices, but not the model in and of itself.

  Imagine if you went to a major retail chain and bought an item on sale, and then went an told 10 of your friends about that item. Say 4 friends went and bought that item and say the item was $100. So you and your friends just paid $500 to the company, well imagine if that major retailer gave you 5% for that. Well you just made $25. Not a whole heck of a lot I agree, but it is something. But no, people do that all the time, go to stores, take their friends and families shopping and pay out through the nose for things and never receive a penny in payment from the store. Plus major retailers have a lot of people convinced that their sales are actually SAVING them money, while really just separating you from your money. Please! Amway/Quixtar actually pays you a percentage to shop with them, pays you a percentage to get others to shop with them, and people call it a scam.

  I did try to start a business with Quixtar a few years back, but my upline all worked for a motivational company like the one featured in this article. I had a great time, I learned a lot and it was a great motivational tool. The tapes sure made me a dreamer, but they did not make me smarter in business. In fact I was taught nothing about the business side of things. That’s why I never got off the ground because my mentor who was an awesome and smart man did not understand how to teach people the business side. He did what his upline told him to do, sell the sexiness of the dream. When I would ask questions all I would get were more tapes that he thought were answering my questions, but they weren’t. Something was wrong and missing and a lot of people who want to learn how to sell and to learn business are not receiving that education by joining the motivational company. Which by the way doubled my startup costs. Robert Kiyosaki not only talks about joining an MLM company to learn business skills and knowledge and how to sell he also talks about people learning to pick the right partners and mentors in business all the time. He doesn’t tell you to join an MLM company to get rich, he tells you to join an MLM to learn skills that will make you a better entrepreneur. I am thinking about rejoining an MLM company but I want to find someone who will teach me the business side of things, and move at my own pace and be a business mentor.
  If you are also thinking about joining an MLM company find a person who will teach you for free. If that person is truly honest about their business then what they teach you and if you work at it will make them money, and will make you money also.

• Research the business, you sound like a broken record. I’ve heard it a hundred times. IBOs are programmed these lies, I mean lines, in order to justify their bad practices. If I buy something from amazon, let’s say a tv for $500 that sells in stores for $700, I save $200 obviously. If I tell a “friend” about the tv and they buy one as well for $500 why should I make money from their $500? The only way amazon would be able to pay commission on the tv would be to charge $525 or more for it. Then at that point your so called friend is overpaying for the tv by having to pay you a commission. However you have to word it to cover up the fact that your making money from your friends is up to you. I on the other hand feel wrong doing that. Amway pays commission because their products are way overpriced. So basically when a so called friend buys these products from them, that “extra” money paid for the products is kicked back to you, the honest IBO who never told a lie. The reason these other companies don’t offer commission is because they don’t need people to sell their products because they are good products at a great price. Nobody wants some cheesy pushy salesperson trying to sell them overpriced products because they can get it cheaper and they don’t have to deal with low lifes like you. Did you ever stop and think that maybe something is wrong when over 97% of the sales of products is to IBOs which leaves a meer 3% of sales to actual customers. Not to mention that most likely the majority of the 3% customer sales is probably people who feel sorry for the IBOs and are buying the products out of pity. And just for the record, being involved with Amway does not make you a business owner. You are a commission based salesperson and nothing more. So quit lumping yourself into the category of a all the true business owners. Good day!

• DoAsISay – Hmmmmm. So your TVthat you buy for $500 on Amazon saves you $200? Well say it’s a Sony TV and it costs Sony $300 to manufacture they sell the TV to a distributor for $400. Well Sony just made $100. Best buy decides to markup the price to $700 and Amazon markups the price to $500. You definitely would buy the TV for $500. ALL BUSINESSES markup prices in order to make a profit! The only way to “SAVE” money would be to buy the item at cost from the manufacturer. Most businesses that use Affiliates do not markup their prices in order to pay their Affiliates. Say I’m Amazon why would I charge $25 more to pay an Affiliate if that Affiliate is driving say 100 more potential customers than I might have had. So using our example of the $500 TV which cost Amazon $400 each. $100 profit for each TV, bust say they are paying 25% commission which I wouldn’t mind getting from Amazon. So they have 1000 customers for this TV from regular traffic which nets them $100000 but now they have 1100 customers for this TV with the hundred from the Affiliate site. They have just netted after paying the commission to the Affiliate $107,500. They just made potentially an extra $7,500 that they may or may not have made because of the Affiliate. Why raise prices? Some one is advertising for you, essentially free to you because it’s money that might not have been made in the first place.

  “However you have to word it to cover up the fact that your making money from your friends is up to you. I on the other hand feel wrong doing that.”
  So you open a “REAL” business at a store in downtown. You invite all your friends and family to the store and say it’s 300 people. 300 people buy half your inventory which cost you $100,000 (which you had to borrow in order to open the store). You charge them no markup and just charge them at your cost. You just made $0 of profit, because you feel bad for charging them a markup price. Now it’s time to order more inventory, but wait! You need $50,000 to replenish your inventory but can’t pay that much money in your REAL BUSINESS. So now you need to borrow $50,000 more (if you can). You are now $100,000 or $150,000 in debt because you “feel bad” for charging friends and family. But your friends and family are let’s say 25% – 50% of your customers from then. Now a quarter or half of your sales in the store are at cost in which you make $0 profit. Ummmmmmm, hhhhhmmmmmmmm, not a very sustainable business model in my mind. You might as well just borrow $100,000 and just give it away to friends and family.

  “The reason these other companies don’t offer commission is because they don’t need people to sell their products because they are good products at a great price.”
  Amazon, Best Buy, and all kinds of companies who sell on the internet offer commission all the time! Research the Business! of other businesses not just AmWay.
  Amazon affiliate-program.amazon.com/
  Best buy http://www.bestbuy.com/AffiliateMarketing
  iTunes http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/
  Sony Store (Official Store) http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentDisplayView?cmsId=affiliate_program_main&storeId=10151&catalogId=10551&langId=-1
  E-Bay https://ebaypartnernetwork.com/
  Just to name a few. Everybody needs Affiliates to sell their products. Let’s see I need another example……Oh wait. The CAR industry in America! Every car lot in America is either an Affiliate or a Franchise which is essentially the same thing, cars need to be purchased from the manufacturers in order to be sold on a car lot. So you hire salespeople as the owner of the car lot and pay them commission in order to sell your cars, or you can sell them yourself. Don’t worry you have all the time in the world to work from 7 am to 11pm to sell cars without paying commission to “salespeople”, right? Plus you have all the money in the world to sell these cars to your friends and family at the cost from the manufacturer, right? Another example… McDonald’s is a Franchise, which needs to be purchased for a $1,000,000 in order to even BEGIN operating. Even if you purchase a McDonald’s for $1,000,000 you just bought a name. Now you need a building, you need to purchase food, toys, furniture, licenses, and other things necessary to run a restaurant. Plus you need to spend money to hire employees, train them, and monitor them. You need to spend more money to ensure that you are in compliance with the various health laws. Whew! Not even close to touching the full costs associated with those businesses. But your friends and family can come to your store all the time and order from you at “cost” with no markup. Can they bring their other friends and family too?

  What all these businesses have in common is that they leverage networks in order to operate, and charge people to open businesses around them. The difference between owning an AmWay business versus say a business that holds inventory is that my costs are way lower to operate. Plus I don’t have to pay to ship and I have way lower distributor costs too. People also have been selling AmWay products in their “REAL” businesses since the beginning of AmWay. So let’s go back to that store you open downtown. Now you load this business with AmWay products. You had to buy the inventory up front at $100,000 but this time you receive commission on all those products that you just bought that you are selling in your “REAL” business. So says it’s 5% commission from AmWay. 5% of $100,000 is? You guessed it! $5000. So I get a $5000 refund from AmWay, plus I get to keep any profit I make off the products that I sell in my “REAL” store.

  I get that you think AmWay may be overpriced and that there are a lot of people out their that are pushing and pressuring friends and family to join or buy AmWay. These people are “REAL” business. The reason that most uplines tell you to sell to friends and family is to get used to the idea of selling. But in reality just like in “REAL” business you have to expand your footprint and draw in business from elsewhere. Friends and Family are the “easy” targets to build confidence and sales skills. But the good mentors also tell you that you have to talk to strangers. Introduce yourself and make contacts. The reason you also make commission off your downline is that if you didn’t AmWay would be utilizing unlawful business practices. You would be creating Affiliates for them, and not yourself so then you would be just a “Salesperson” making commission off only what you sell. So in a way “THE PYRAMID” (sorry real IBO’s that are reading this. I use “pyramid” facetiously) makes the business legal because you are getting paid for helping AmWay sell more products plus helping the people below you make more sales, and so on and so on.

  In closing. I do not like most of the motivational networks out there that are taking people’s money by constantly selling them books, CD’s, seminars, and everything else that comes along with it. Like many people say it creates dependency. Like my example above talking about uplines selling the sexiness of the dream. I sat around and watched as my upline sold the business for me. I didn’t do anything, I watched, listened to CD’s, went to the seminars. Was told all the time that I had to wait, keep waiting, watch and wait some more. I kept thinking to myself. Is this their business or mine? Am I being taught to build MY OWN business? My answer was no. So I dropped out and joined the Army. Literally. I have yet to rejoin the business, but I see the many benefits of it, if you run it like a “REAL” business and expand beyond pressuring you friends and family like it’s a school fundraiser. Which is coincidentally where many people get their selling skills, and think “Oh AmWay is going to be easy! Uncle Bob buys from Sarah’s school catalogs all the time.” Nope! Business is hard as I am learning.

• I don’t need a statistics lesson, Explorer. Prior to becoming an entrepreneur my only full time employment was (partially) as a statistician. I’m well aware of the use and abuse of the field.

  The fact, however, that you dismiss officially produced and published statistics as “potentially bogus” simply confirms what I said about confirmation bias. Your clearly looking for reasons to dismiss anything that may somehow be “positive” to Amway. Ironically of course you’ve numerous times made claims of certain statistics from critics that *are* just made up, and never once seemed to have queried them …

  Contrary to your claims they are provided to all new IBOs – indeed the document I linked to is supposed to be provided to all prospects by IBOs who show them the business.

  As for wikipedia, you apparently understand it’s mechanisms about as well as you understand Amway. The Amway document I linked to is considered a “reliable source” for internal statistics under wikipedia guidelines. You might like to make the effort to update the article yourself, wikipedia relies on people like you and me to create and edit articles, it doesn’t just happen magically.

• I don’t think simply in terms of positive or negative. I care about the truth. And if you are using statistics commission by Amway, of course I am going to ask about their credibility; even more, when Amway themselves are not using your cited statistics on their welcoming kit disclosure. ( and yes I checked a welcoming package from an IBO 2011) The only other statistics that I use are the ones that are well know about Amway, which are listed by Wikipedia ( I didn’t know that Wikipedia was a critic of Amway if that is what your are falsely accusing me of when you say a grab statistics from critics); and I am talking about the 1% where the diamonds and platinum’s are. As I asked you before, if you dispute them let me know (which you didn’t) and I’ll try to get them from a different source. The only other statistic that I have used are your OWN that you have cited here ( are you also an Amway critic?)—The one about 78% of IBO not even having legs.

  “that you dismiss officially produced and published statistics as ‘potentially bogus’ simply confirms what I said about confirmation bias”

  The bias is on you IF you are filling up the ears of your reader with bias or questionable statistics….all I am asking are real questions with reasons behind them. There is absolutely nothing bias about wanting to know if those statistics are credible or not. I am not saying that they are bogus, but there is a question mark about their credibility due to the following:

  When you us a number such as 46% of active IBO from a 2010 study, then I try to Google it for a credible site to confirm it, and the only one I can find is the 66% number listed in Wikipedia; and then I go to Amway new IBO welcoming kit from 2011 to confirm it, and I find a disclosure with an asterisk listing 66% number (again is Amway a critic of itself since you say i use statistics from critics?)—when i look at this I see an inconsistency, and of course I am going to ask about the credibility of your data—do you think that’s “negative”?

  I have no problem acknowledging credible statistics. But since you know about Amway more them me let me ask you…1) do you acknowledge that Amway was using the 66% on their new IBO welcoming kit? 2) is Amway now using a different number on their 2012…? If you tell me that yes Amway is now using their 2010 data ONlY on all of their 2012 material ( and if it is true), including on their new Ibo welcoming kit disclosure, I’ll begin to believe them, since I will know that Amway is confident enough to use them there, everywhere.

• (1) The wikipedia statistics originate from an earlier version of this same Amway document

  (2) It’s now 2012. These statistics were first released in October, as already noted in the link supplied. Clearly they’re not going to be in any “welcome kit” or such published before then.

  (3) That was not the “critic” statistics I was referring to. In fact it’s more than possible I’m the one who put them in the wikipedia article. Statistics you seem to accept unquestionably are things like a 99% “failure” rate.

  So to your questions –
  (1) yes, Amway was using the 66% figure before they updated it, from the same survey which is run at least once a decade.
  (2) I have not checked every single piece of literature to see if it has been updated. I already linked you to the official Business Opportunity Brochure that uses the updated figures, as well as the Achiever’s Magazine, which uses the updated figures. I don’t know what the “welcoming kit disclosure” is, never seen one. I’m fairly confident that any produced in 2012 would have the updated figures, however there may still be old stock. Clearly what is provided on the website is what would be most up to date.

• A 99% failure rate seem generous. I think it’s higher. The fact that “most” IBOs do nothing is already a clue that there’s an issue with this business. Factor in genreally uncompetitive prices and you now have trouble selling products, which is why many IBOs are taught to “buy from themselves”. Thus, when these IBOs end up quitting, they have no loyalty to Amway products because they were primarily buying them in hopes that Amway would make them rich. When the dream fades, there goes the product sales.

  Factor in the tool scam and it’s easy to conclude that Amway is a poor business opportunity at best, and at worst, a scam.

• Ibfbck, I don’t remember ever using the 99% statistic to prove that all 99% of IBOs are losing money for sure, or “unquestionably” as you implied ( although I always have suspected that that is the case for the majority of them due to the 115/ month average income). In any case, I always have stated my suspicion with “it seems” or “it seems to me” as I can remember.

  THINGS WE CAN AGREE ON SO FAR

  1) 99% of all IBOs don’t even reach one of the lowest upper level, i.e. platinum

  2) 78% of them don’t even have legs

  3) 43% are active

  4) The majority of people (57%) who join the Amway business, for some strange reason, right after joining, do nothing to make their business work( i.e., don’t even try to make a single sale!)

  Here is another point which you seem to not have refuted on the past, but rather justified it:

  5) Comparing same-purpose products, Amway products are higher in price ; but you justify it because in your opinion and in the opinions of the IBOs ( but as joecool pointed out, not in the opinion of the general public–none-IBOs), the price is right because they are higher quality–hence your analogy of a bicycle vs a car.

  based on the above, I can conclude the following: at least 78% of the IBOs are not profitable in Amway; in fact, if they practice the “buy from yourself mentality”, on average, they are spending more money on same-purpose products than the Costco or even Amazon buyer, and therefore, these IBOs are worse financially than the Costco or Amazon buyer. But of course you will say those IBOs are happy that way because they are paying for high quality.

  THINGS THAT ARE NOT YET CLEAR…

  1) does the Survey above-mentioned include “trying to sponsor somebody” as an “Active IBO activity”?

  2) what about the cases when IBOs don’t place orders themselves but have their up-line do it for them to avoid shipping cost, those the survey account for this as “placing an order” in order to qualify the IBO as active as well?

  3) Since we now know that the majority of the IBOs, 78% of them, don’t have legs (your own cited statistics), that leaves 21% on the speculation zone when it comes to their real profits…

  In my opinion, in absence of statistics, it is better to speculate on the side of common sense and logic than against it. Common sense dictates that the IBOs who do have legs, have interest to, and are the ones who need to, find a way to keep these people motivated—and what better than sending them to meetings, buying tools, etc, and by the up-lines themselves also doing it to set up an example as the leaders? I wouldn’t be surprised if these IBOs who have legs are the ones most heavily attending meetings regularly (although again, I don’t know). I know of IBOs regularly attending meeting even in different states. So it is here where the critics statements become more plausible; statements about most of these IBOs breaking even or even losing money when you take into account Amway’s, on average, higher priced products (again , nothing wrong with an IBO joining simply because he likes the products even with higher prices), gas expenses, car maintenance, food, travel expenses (airfare), expensive seminars/meeting and more…

  THINGS I DID NOT KNOW…

  I had no idea that Amway commissioned all of their surveys. I Thought they were independently done without any money flowing from Amway to the survey company. This has nothing to do with being an Amway critic, but whenever there is money flowing from a company to a group who is supposed to produce unbiased studies, I become hesitant to put lot’s of trust-weight on those studies, especially if they are surveys. This is the same scrutiny that the company Monsanto has come under, after scientist began accusing the company of making false scientific studies, and of even getting scientist fired from their positions for not producing favorable studies for the company, according to the testimony of well-known scientist (as feature in Food Inc, The World According to Monsanto, and other Google sources). I am not saying that Amway is the same way, or that those studies are not accurate, I just don’t know how accurate they truly are (i.e. I am not an statistics expert) . Numbers given by Amway to a federal court proceeding or to an organization such as the FTC are a different case–I will guess–since that is more like an audit. In any case you know more about statistics than I do, so you will know better, but is up to you to present them in an honest way.

• Sorry, don’t agree with those points as written.
  (1) I agree that 99% of people who register with Amway do not reach Q-12 Platinum, a part-time business which, on average, generates over $50,000/yr in income
  (2) In the old Quixtar statistics, 69% don’t sponsor anyone. 12.9% sponsor someone and earn a bonus from downline volume
  (3) 43% are “active” in Amway’s definition – which is not the same as meaning they are trying to build a business
  (4) I’d suggest it’s more than 57% who do nothing to operate a business, and I don’t find it strange. As I think noted earlier in this thread, the Amway Japan annual report had a survey which showed 72% joined primarily to get distributor pricing, not to operate a business. The FTC in their report on their proposed (now actual) new business opportunity rule reported similar figures for Shaklee.

  Why do you think it is strange that people who register primarily to get cheaper pricing don’t do anything to make money?

  (note: Amway, at least in the US, has been taking steps in recent years to discourage this approach)

  (5) This is an utterly ridiculous “point” from you. Pick any product of any type from any company, and every single one of them, bar one of each “type”, is more expensive than a “same purpose” competitor. In general, Amway products are cheaper than their competitors in the same market categories. To claim otherwise is false.

  Clearing up your “unclear” issues ….

  (1) yes it includes trying to sponsor someone. You can read this yourself you know.

  (2) if any IBO gets the PV (which they would with a consolidated order), then that’s recorded as an order by them

  (3) not sure exactly how you do math, but to be accurate according the Quixtar statistics (not a survey, internal statistics revealed in a court case) 12.9% earn a bonus on downline volume. In the UK it was reported that 6% have retail sales, a requirement to earn a bonus on downline volume in that market. So you have no more than 6-13% making even a cursory attempt to develop a business.

  I wouldn’t be surprised if these IBOs who have legs are the ones most heavily attending meetings regularly

  a reasonable assumption

  So it is here where the critics statements become more plausible; statements about most of these IBOs breaking even or even losing money when you take into account Amway’s, on average, higher priced products

  huh? First of all, “critics” claims about IBOs breaking even or losing money are based on the “average” income figure of (now) $202/mth, which as has been pointed out (a) is a meaningless statistic since it’s not a normal distribution (b) includes lots of people, you appear to accept, not trying to make an income.

  What the heck your claimed “average higher priced products” have to do with it I don’t know? Higher priced products is actually more likely to imply higher profits. Or are you, like many (sorry) clueless critics, including products purchased for personal use as a business expense? They’re not. If anything, products purchased for personal use are a *business income*, not an expense. You’re either accounted for as a customer, or it’s stock withdrawn for personal use, which generally has to be paid for in to the business (ie it’s an income)

  For an anecdotal report, as an active IBO, including attending meetings etc, I was well and truly in the black at around the 1200 point mark, and that was doing less retailing than I should have been. Today a new IBO, especially in the US with various “startup” incentives, should be profitable virtually immediately.

  Re Things you did not know

  Amway is required by law to provide these statistics. Who else do you think should pay for them? In any case, I *am* a statistics expert, and the “income survey” statistics, even if accurate, are rubbish. They’re done because the FTC requires it, but if you even take a cursory look into analysis of income, you’ll discover “average” is a statistic that is rarely, if ever, used because income is not normally distributed (think “bell curve”), a requirement for “average” to be meaningful. Amway’s “IBOs” are a highly heterogeneous group. Even within Amway’s “active” category you have people just buying products, people who’ve been building a business for a few weeks for a little extra cash, and people who have built multi-billion dollar international enterprises over decades. It’s like taking some guy who has bought a house to live in and Donald Trump and averaging their income to work out the income potential of real estate. It’s ridiculous. It’s done by MLMs because the FTC requires it, supposedly so that prospect can make “informed” decisions. In reality it makes the opportunities look much worse than they actually are. Corporate lawyers, and the FTC, are relaxed with this as it means people can’t claim companies are (at least officially) over-hyping their income earning potential.

  In any case, the statistics quoted are almost all either from court cases or statistics collated because the FTC requires them, so you can relax about their general veracity, if not their actuall usefulness.

• In one of your last post, you talked about honesty, so let’s try to stick to it as much as possible…
  2) When you were trying to prove your point, you did agree with 78% statistic, but now you don’t? your statements below make it clear to me that you did agree:

   “But, as I noted in some of the links above, you can look at statistics of what people actually do and get an idea. From the data presented in Team vs Quixtar, around 78% of distributors who renew are not earning any group commissions – ie they don’t have a downline making them any money, most of them don’t even sponsor anyone. Yet they renew.Why? Why would they renew if they’re not earning any money at all (and it’s really quite easy to earn a downline bonus)?”—ibofbk

  3)” 43% are ‘active’ in Amway’s definition – which is not the same as meaning they are trying to build a business”—-> it is also not the same as meaning that they are not trying to build a business; but “Active” means being active, not being inactive. If you want to speculate that they are doing little, you can also speculate that are doing a lot.

  “Why do you think it is strange that people who register primarily to get cheaper pricing don’t do anything to make money?”

  —->Because the Amway business opportunity has never been presented to me as buying club, but as business opportunity—was it ever presented to you as a buying club?

  “In general, Amway products are cheaper than their competitors in the same market categories.”

  —>If market category means another MLN company, I say it could be, but if I made the point of Amway products been more expensive is because I was recently looking at items such as toothpaste, bath tissue and detergent, and found much cheaper deals on Amazon ( Colgate, scott, etc), and of course not going to take the time to list every single Amway product. Maybe, just maybe I may or may not do that later. But I already listed a detergent vs Amway detergent before, and your argument, as I remember, was that it was not in the same category as Amway’s detergent—it may or may not be true that Amway products are higher quality, but the point was that millions more use the traditional market products than Amway products, and when they become IBOs, they pay for those products, which according to my limited comparison, are higher priced. I do admit I only compared about three products and I stopped. Maybe just maybe, later on I may or may not compare more products.

  “not sure exactly how you do math”—->not including 1% (since we know that they make a decent income) 99%-78%= 21% with legs ( people whose real profit is left to speculation)

  “Higher priced products is actually more likely to imply higher profits. Or are you, like many (sorry) clueless critics, including products purchased for personal use as a business expense? They’re not. If anything, products purchased for personal use are a *business income*, not an expense”

  —>if you really believe that, I have a great Idea, and we can make a lot of money with this, I’ll buy products from the store, let’s say at an average of $12 a piece. Then I will make you and “Independent Buisness Owner”, sell you the products for $50, 000, and give you back a generous amount of $20,000 for each item! you will be reach by simply buying from your own business for personal use, you will have a great “business income”! I can start you anytime you wish

• Clarification about products compared, it was actually Crest toothpaste that I compare to be cheaper, Colgate is actually more expensive if you buy one single toothpaste (at Amazon, have not compared Costco or others) vs one single glister, but Colgate has different varieties with different prices, with bulk discount options.

• IBOFB is inconsistent and hypocritical. If Amway declared that the sky was actually purple, he would argue to the death that it is.

  No one with the credentials and experiences that IBOFB claims to have would waste time with Amway, let alone actively participate in online forums defending this company. My hunch is that IBOFB is simply a paid publicist on behalf of Amway.

• Explorer,
  (1) 78% is “don’t earn a bonus on downline volume”, which isn’t the same thing as not having any legs. You can have one leg and not quaify for downline bonuses. This was especially common in the system Orrin Woodward’s TEAM was using. I didn’t dispute your description of it earlier because it’s a relatively minor issue. Actually 77.1% when I check the original source.

  (2) but “Active” means being active, not being inactive. If you want to speculate that they are doing little, you can also speculate that are doing a lot.. First , note (again) that nowhere does Amway define “active” in terms of business building. A shopper who places an order over 100PV is “active” in their definition. As for speculation, none is necessary. This information is (a) known by anyone who has built a business of any sort of size (b) in statistics recorded by most active IBOs (c) in statistics collated by IBO organizations (d) consistent with industry surveys by the DSA (e) reported by the FTC in FTC vs Amway more than 30 yeas ago (f) reported by UK courts two years ago (g) 100% consistent with human behaviour in other endeavours (ever heard of the Pareto Principle?)

  The idea that most are active business builders is an “extraordinary” claim that requires supporting evidence.

  Because the Amway business opportunity has never been presented to me as buying club, but as business opportunity—was it ever presented to you as a buying club?

  The two are not mutually exclusive. It was presented to me with both options available. The “buying club” approach is one there has been a lot of debate about (including within Amway corporation) and is well known. I’m against promoting that approach (due to it’s effect on profitability) but for much of the 90s and 00s it was probably the “norm” in much of Amway US.

  If market category means another MLN company

  No, I’m talking about all companies. MLM is a marketing strategy, not an industry category. But let’s check your prices? Ignoring the fact pretty much nobody buys toothpaste via Amazon. First product I found for Crest was this one –

  Crest 3D White Vivid Fluoride Anticavity Toothpaste Radiant Mint Flavor. There’s such a wide variety of products it’s difficult to compare, but this one is a whitening product, as is Glister. It’s $0.71/fl.oz. Glister is $0.61/fl.oz. Glister instructions are to use about a third as much as competitors, making Glister A LOT cheaper than the Crest – and this is at full retail price, whereas we’re talking IBO pricing in this discussion.

  but the point was that millions more use the traditional market products than Amway products, and when they become IBOs, they pay for those products, which according to my limited comparison, are higher priced

  There is some truth to this, as I pointed out back in 2008 – ABOS- please stop selling Amway as a way to save money – what is your point? Selling higher quality, even more expensive, products does not make something a bad business opportunity.

  if you really believe that

  If you don’t believe me, go ask an accountant. It varies depending on what type of business setup you have (sole proprietor, LLC, Corp etc), but as the IRS says –

  If you withdraw merchandise for your personal or family use, you must exclude this cost from the total amount of merchandise you bought for sale. Do this by crediting the purchases or sales account with the cost of merchandise you withdraw for personal use. You must also charge the amount to your drawing account.
  A drawing account is a separate account you should keep to record the business income you withdraw to pay for personal and family expenses. As stated above, you also use it to record withdrawals of merchandise for personal or family use. This account is also known as a “withdrawals account” or “personal account.”

  , I have a great Idea, and we can make a lot of money with this I’ll buy products from the store, let’s say at an average of $12 a piece. Then I will make you and “Independent Buisness Owner”, sell you the products for $50, 000, and give you back a generous amount of $20,000 for each item! you will be reach by simply buying from your own business for personal use, you will have a great “business income”!

  In that scenario you’re running a business, I am not, the (supposed) analogy isn’t even close to relevant. If you’re not running a business, then you don’t have a business income.

• Ok, you clarified that “78% of distributors who renew are not earning any group commissions – ie they don’t have a downline making them any money..” refers to not necessarily having no legs, but the 78% not earning any group commission still holds (but now you say it’s actually 77.1%). In Any case, these 77.1% are not profitable.

  “The two are not mutually exclusive. It was presented to me with both options available. The ‘buying club’ approach…”——->I don’t remember the buying club term ever been used. I think the Amway plan is presented as buy from yourself and teach other to do the same as PART of the business.

  The below is not meant as mocking, but to emphasize a point; no offense intended:

  Arranging an official corporation with you as an official sales associate, is not a problem (you can be set up to officially be 1099 self employed and start running your own business, as in the Amway definition). Corporations can have 1099 employees, or sales associate, and they can also set their own prices.. If not, ask Amway. The US lifted the price restrictions on many products, so finding a product to sell at exorbitant prices is not a problem. You will have the ability to order products from me, sell them(good luck), and/or use them for your own personal consumption (just like an IBO), and thereby create great “business volume”. Maybe I can make jewelry with the mark “explorer”—the ideas are many. I can get these products at $12 to $1000 cost, and sell you the products from $50K to $5Million (depending on how much “business volume” you want to produce!), and send you a check in the mail for 25% of the price you paid my company. And as you say before, The title doesn’t matter, it’s just marketing (see #2 below), I will give you a title such as “IBVP” (Independent Business Volume Producer”).

  You are putting too many buts now, when you have been the one emphasizing mere business volume without any regards to business profitability; you went as far as diverting the issue and came up with what I saw as a completely disconnected analogy– which had something to do with me, supposedly, asking you a question similar to someone asking if a crocodile had feathers! (see #4 below). The IRS may define business volume however they want it for the sake of accounting, but that doesn’t mean that they are suggesting that business owners should give up common sense and think that business volume, as you have been emphasizing in a couple of post (without regards to profitability), is what is important. If that was true, you will be jumping into the opportunity I am offering you to produce as much business volume as you like!

  ” First , note (again) that nowhere does Amway define ‘active’ in terms of business building. A shopper who places an order over 100PV is ‘active’ in their definition.”
  ——> ordering products from or for your business is part of a business operation, don’t you think? even more when you agree that ” products purchased for personal use are a *business income*”(see #3). I don’t think you can build a business without operating it; Business building requires operation.

  The mere fact that you try to define active IBOs who order products as not necessarily running a business (see #1 and 3 below), but then you turn around and say that they did have business income, shows a duality; if they are not necessarily running the business, how come they can order products from a supposed none operated business, and produce business volume according to you?

  Regarding the other issues of product comparison, I can actually find crest for much cheaper price per/ounce on Amazon as you stated, but I have decided that I am not going to get into comparing Amway prices to other companies; primarily because I am trying at this point to move to organic products as much as my budget permits me. I do not like the that Proctor & Gamble do animal testing (and Amway test on animals as well). So I am not going to be promoting Crest or Colgate (which is what I currently use), when right now I am considering to move away from them. Is up to people to decide if they want to buy from Amway or Amazon. Amway has been given the permission to operate by the authorities like any other company; and I am not here to bash Amway (but whatever is not true it’s just not true). In fact there is a product from Amway that I used, and that is that honey and glycerin soap— I like it, although I must also say that one of the reasons I also buy ( in addition to liking it of course; although I may move away from it for an organic one instead) is because I have Amway people close to me. I have tried glister, and another body soap from Amway, but they are not for me.

  quotes from Ibofbk:

  1) Heck, just last week a friend said to us “I have a friend who has just moved her from Ukraine and wants to buy some Amway products, can you get them for her?” We said yes of course, she’s on her way to pick them up right now. The profit is going to more than cover our yearly membership fee.
  Are we running an Amway business? No. I don’t need to register it as a business as activity is too low, and that income is well below the “hobby income” threshold here.

  2) @anon1 – as I said, doesn’t matter what label Amway wants to give you, if you’re not running a business you’re not running a business. I’m an authorized Microsoft Partner and Reseller, but I don’t resell MS products, so I’m not reselling, even if Microsoft gives me the label. It’s just marketing.

  3) Higher priced products is actually more likely to imply higher profits. Or are you, like many (sorry) clueless critics, including products purchased for personal use as a business expense? They’re not. If anything, products purchased for personal use are a *business income*, not an expense. You’re either accounted for as a customer, or it’s stock withdrawn for personal use, which generally has to be paid for in to the business (ie it’s an income)

  4) Explorer says: In your refutation, you ignore the central point… the topic was no longer about mrely business volume, but the importance of a profitable business volume.
  Ibofbk response: I’ve tried to answer everything as best I could. I suspect that part of the problem is you’re asking questions/making comments that are the functional equivalent of asking me “why are crocodile feathers purple?” and then complaining I won’t answer the question.
  Crocodiles of course don’t have feathers and many of the comments seem to come from positions of fundamental misunderstandings of how Amway works. You’re assuming certain of your beliefs are true and then formulating questions around those beliefs, when what you really need to do is look at the evidence, or lack of, that led to those beliefs in the first place.

• In Any case, these 77.1% are not profitable.

  And neither do the majority of them expect to be, and we shouldn’t expect them to be or label them “failures” because of it.

  I think the Amway plan is presented as buy from yourself and teach other to do the same as PART of the business

  The so-called BFYTODS was taught by some Amway groups, it is not the actual Amway model, which *requires* retail sales to non-IBO customers.

  re business volume –

  What’s your actual point here? I’m not getting it. If your selling products to me and I’m not selling them to anyone else, I’m not in business, only you are. I’ve got “shopping volume”, not “business volume”. I don’t see what you’re getting at?

  ordering products from or for your business is part of a business operation, don’t you think?

  only if you’re running a business, as per the above. Most people registered as IBOs are not. It’s business volume for their active upline (and Amway) not them.

  then you turn around and say that they did have business income, shows a duality; if they are not necessarily running the business, how come they can order products from a supposed none operated business, and produce business volume according to you?

  I don’t know where I said inactive IBOs with no wholesale (ie downline) or retail clients have “business volume” from a business perspective (as opposed to in-house jargon). Either I was lazy in my wording or your misunderstood, or most likely a combination of both. They only have business income if they’re running a business. And if they are there only “customer” then they’re not their only customer, they don’t have a business to have customers.

  Perhaps in your experience of the BFYTODS model, you miss the fact the people you “teach to do the same” are customers? So if you’re doing that, then you have customers (though you also need non-IBO customers to satisfy Amway requirements.

  Amway test on animals as well

  You are, at least partly, misinformed. Amway was one of the first companies to remove all animal testing, where legally possible, and did so well over two decades ago. A quick google archive search found reports of Amway not introducing products because the EPA required animal testing. In 2006 the corp made the following statement on their blog –

  “We oppose animal testing and our products are not tested on animals unless required by government regulations. We actively lead initiatives to create alternatives to required animal tests.”

• Well Ibofbk, I am no longer going to continue this discussion, I’ll let someone else take over, so this is my last post….bye bye

• IBOFBCK is just putting lipstick on a pig. In the end, it’s still a pig. You can say all kinds of things to make Amway look rosy and nice, but in the end, Amway is a crappy business where most people end up quitting or losing money. That is the bottom line and that is the indisputable truth.

• I had originally decided not to continue posting, primarily because of the time factor. However, I have change my mind, and I may or may not post, although not often. Additionally I have a very close friend who has commented to me that he is thinking of going strong in the business, so this exchanges help me see if there is any validity to what an IBO teaches without starting a confrontation.

  But first pardon me for the use of excessive Capial letter words to emphasize which fallow–I don’t know if how to us blod in this blogg.

  To answer some of your comments about, let me say that I am not an attorney nor a public accountant, so all I say below is merely my opinion, and it is not legal or financial advice.

  The point that I am going to be making is that an active IBO is working the Amway business, as opposed to you trying to imply ( your words: “You have people like myself, who are registered as IBOs but not working the business”) that if they don’t have a down-line, they are not working the business–that’s’ totally false, and your statement may be either due to lack of understanding of the basic English language, on your part, and how it is commonly used here in the US; or it may be that you do understand it, but you are deliberately trying to redefine it however you like in order to confuse(I don’t know)–or similar to how you like to put it, maybe a combination of both. Now, IBOs ARE working the business even if they are doing any ibo activity—trying to sell, sponsor or EVEN buy from themselves. Now if what you meant is that Amway IBOs are not working their own owned business, than that is true, because they don’t own a business.

  Now, ibfbk, it is important to understand that when I communicate with you, I am doing it in the English language as it is commonly used by people, and not in your own defined language. I live in the US, and we speak English, not ibofbk language.

  A shopping club is not a business opportunity(period!). You try to interchange both meanings (i.e., creating your own hybrid definition), when they are not interchangeable. And as I will be saying throughout, your own definitions are irrelevant, because we are speaking English, as it is commonly used, and not your personal language. Here is a quote where you try to interchange both meaning: “Explorer, it sounds to me like you think Amway is primarily some kind of shopping club? As I mentioned, some groups have tried to run it that way, but it’s not a particularly profitable business model and is discouraged by Amway”–end of quote. A shopping club being run as a business model? Shopping club member don’t run their membership in a business model, because they are not a business opportunity, they run it as shopping club to save money. Again, bofbk language is irrelevant, because we ARE communicating in English.

  Amway cannot have merely shopping volume ( it is also business volume), because Amway is not a shopping club opportunity, it’s a business opportunity(period!).

  your words: “What’s your actual point here? I’m not getting it. If your selling products to me and I’m not selling them to anyone else, I’m not in business, only you are. I’ve got ‘shopping volume’, not ‘business volume’. I don’t see what you’re getting at?” end of quote—>No. is not shopping volume, I am not offering you a buying club, I am offering you a business opportunity ( I will make it an MLM where you can sponsor people, just like Amway). A corporation can be form in the US and hire 1099 self employed sales associates (notice I did not say shopping club members), I suggest you do some research (or ask Amway), and you will know that that is true. I can officially make you a sales associate, and not necessarily a shopping club member. Now I know the above referring to you buying from my fictitious company at exorbitant prices is a bit exaggerated, but it was to prove a point. You say you don’t get the point, but the point is clear: if you entered in the Amway business to do business, but you are spending lots of more money on same-purpose products than what you used to ( and even if you have not-very-profitable-legs who are not covering your over expense) your business volume is irrelevant when it comes to profitability if you are in a worst financial position now than what you used to be in your former traditional market personal consumption. Mere business volume is not the only thing important in a business—profitability is more important! (now IBOs may claim that their quality of life is better because they believe they are using higher quality products ( it may be); but the truth is that I don’t know that, many people don’t hold the same opinion, and that is not the point here because we are talking about business profitabilty and not a better product experience)

  Now, let’s clarify what are IBOs really
  Amway is the only company that I can think of that uses the term “independent business owner” as their title for their sales associates. To me this is a cheesy title because it implies business ownership, when to me, they don’t really own a business; and they will never own a business if they continue to be a sales associate from Amway, no matter how much “business volume” from Amway they move (unless they open a corporation with a permanent business location/storefront—this is what owning your own business is commonly known to mean in the US). They ARE, however, in the business (mlm business), as Amway IBOs are more akin to a sales force working on commission as 1099 self employed. All the other companies in their respective industries never try to use titles that suggest business ownership for their sales force. The real estate industries, for example, names their sales associates real estate agents; in the insurance business they are known as insurance agents or insurance producers when working under a company; in the mortgage business, loan officers, or mortgage consultants, etc,etc.

  Common ways of referring to a person when he goes in to a business industry.
  When an person goes into an industry they are said to be in that industry’s business. When a person goes into the real estate business for example, if someone asks, “what does your son do?”, their replay may be, “well he just went into the real estate business”; insurance agents, the reply may be ” he is in the insurance business”; and for MLM, the reply could be “in an MLM business”—in fact, being that Amway is the giant in this industry, it is not uncommon for people to say that someone is going into the Amway business. For industries in the sales business in general, terms such as “he is working on his business ” or “working his business” sometimes are used depending on the conversation; and when used it is understood that is not necessarily his own owned business. Other common terms that are used are terms such as “do you have any business right now” (to ask if you have any business work) sometimes is used, but never “do you have A business?” or “do you own a business?” because it is understood that you don’t when you are just a sales person.

  Now if you notice above, the terms are not necessarily indicative of profitability or moving business volume, they are used to described the industry where they are in, and without mention if they are profitable or not. When a person joins an MLM business, he is said to be in the MLM business associated with such and such company (without any regards to business volume).

  Quick Note: Now notice that I am not looking for your approval if that is what the above terms mean or if that is how they should be used, nor am i trying to start a senseless debate on thing that are already known by the general population. I am just telling you how thing are; and I am not interested to learn your language to communicate exclusively with you, when this term are being used every day by millions of business and common people alike. You can try to redefine how you want to use language, but we don’t use your language, so we need to use language the way it is used, not how you want to use it to prove your own points. You see, your own definitions are irrelevant because you are the only one who is using them. And the problem is that when you want to define language for your own purpose, you can change it anytime, or shape it to distort meaning. So we have to use language as it is already in use.

  Continuing on…even a real business does not necessarily have to be profitable in order to be still be consider a business; some business that are losing money are still consider a business even right before they close. When a business is going to close because of not being profitable, they will used the term “going out of business sale” rather than “already not in business sale since we are not profitable”. Now, in the sales industry If a person is losing money in the real estate business, for example, he is losing money in the real estate business ( because he/she is in the real estate business)

  The IRS also has its own guidelines and language for accounting purpose when it comes to business. Usually, a losing business is still allow business status by the IRS for the first three years. After that, it may be consider a hobby. But a person who continues in the business, let’s say in the insurance business, after the 3rd year and in to the following years, is still said to be in the insurance business; and it is said to be losing money in the insurance business. So does he have a business? of course not, he never had one, even if he would have been profitable, because he is only a sales associate. It is just that now after three years of losing, it is reasonable to say that it has become his hobby to be in that business, even when he is losing money–but again he still is in that business (regardless if he is moving business volume or not), because he is working in that business.

  By the way, notice how the Amway diamond Mr. Duncan’s (see the link of the video pointed out by joecool) himself uses the language “in this business” in general terms; and also notice how he never mentions shopping club.

  So do the IBOs have a business? of course not, even if they are profitable, because they are only sales associates. But they ARE in the MLM business as Amway sales associates, EVEN if they are losing money, or EVEN if simply ordering products (a part of the business).

  The Amway business consist of three main parts, buy from yourself, sponsor people, and retail. The Amway business opportunity is not a buying club regardless of how you try to make it look. The Amway business opportunity is just that, a business opportunity. So if you are doing any of the three parts of the business mentioned above, you are doing the business, or working the business, or working in the business, EVEN if you are only ordering products for yourself consumption, BECAUSE THAT IS PART OF THE AMWAY BUSINESS.

  So an IBO can still be said to be losing money in the business even if he has no “business volume”, since he is working, trying to get new business. Why? because he is in the business (MLM business), and moving or not moving business volume has nothing to do with this use of language when referring to someone who is in a specific business industry. By going out and prospect in the street (and spending money on gas) And IBO can be said to be losing money in the business, even if he is not moving business volume, because he is working in the MLM business to get business ( sponsoring people, a part of the business), just like a real estate agent could be losing money in the real estate business by showing houses (only a part of the business), and not selling any houses yet or writing any contracts (another part of the business). In the same way ordering products for self consumption is part of the Amway business, because Amway is in the MLM industry, is not a shopping club (period!); and it is a business opportunity; and it is always presented as such; and again it is part of Amway’s business model(period!)

• an active IBO is working the Amway business

  entirely agree.

  as opposed to you trying to imply ( your words: “You have people like myself, who are registered as IBOs but not working the business”) that if they don’t have a down-line, they are not working the business–that’s’ totally false

  No it’s not. Unless out of a conscious choice to only make a little extra cash retailing, there is ZERO way that you can be actively “working the business” and not sponsor people and generate a downline.

  . Now, IBOs ARE working the business even if they are doing any ibo activity—trying to sell, sponsor or EVEN buy from themselves.

  You seem to be resorting to little more than pedanticism. While techinically speaking, someone doing any of those things (except just buying for themselves) just once may be doing business activity, nobody can seriously claim they are trying to develop a business and business income. No tax authority in the world (the ultimate adjudicators of this) would consider you to be “in business” unless you’re putting in a sustained effort.

  And no rational person would judge whether an opportunity is viable or not based on people *not* actually engaged in the opportunity

  Now if what you meant is that Amway IBOs are not working their own owned business, than that is true, because they don’t own a business.

  Huh? Any Amway IBO actively working their business of course owns a business. Some of them are multi-million dollar global corporate enterprises. They are bought and sold as businesses. Taxed as business. Larger ones even employ as businesses.

  All of this is obvious, so I guess I should assume I’m struggling with american english … so please explain what you really meant!

  A shopping club is not a business opportunity(period!).

  I agree. But marketing a shopping club can be a business opportunity.

  if you entered in the Amway business to do business, but you are spending lots of more money on same-purpose products than what you used to

  What are you waffling on about? *Buying products for personal use is NOT a business* Didn’t you just point out that joining a shopping club is not a business?

  All the other companies in their respective industries never try to use titles that suggest business ownership for their sales force

  Clearly you’ve never heard of franchising. Not that what “title” you have defines what you actually do (or who you are).

  In any case YOU don’t get to decide who is a business owner or not. It’s ultimately decided by the authorities who issue licences, and their position on independent contractors is clear, those people are self-employed

  The real estate industries, for example, names their sales associates real estate agents

  And real estate agents generally own their own business, they’re mostly franchises. They often *also* employ agents as well, who are often independent contractors.

  Same with independent insurance agents.

  It appears you know as much about other industries as you do about Amway ….

  I am just telling you how thing are

  No you’re not. You’re telling me how you think things are. Sorry, but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

  You see, your own definitions are irrelevant because you are the only one who is using them

  yeah, just me and most regulatory authorities and business owners. Jeez.

  Tell me, explorer, just for clarity how many businesses have you owned?

  even a real business does not necessarily have to be profitable in order to be still be consider a business; some business that are losing money are still consider a business even right before they close

  Correct. For small home-based businesses, whether you’re a business or not is defined by activity, not profit or loss. In fact you can even make a profit and still not be considered a business.

  But a person who continues in the business, let’s say in the insurance business, after the 3rd year and in to the following years, is still said to be in the insurance business; and it is said to be losing money in the insurance business. So does he have a business? of course not, he never had one, even if he would have been profitable, because he is only a sales associate.

  ROFLMAO! So, despite the fact that all authorities consider this person to have been in business, having to pay all relevant business licences and taxes, this person is not because … you say so???

  Who died and made you the king?

  Seriously, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Go read up on the independent contractors link I supplied, and follow through on it’s links.

  By the way, notice how the Amway diamond Mr. Duncan’s (see the link of the video pointed out by joecool) himself uses the language “in this business” in general terms; and also notice how he never mentions shopping club.

  And notice how Mr Duncan’s IBOship is a multi-million dollar corporation. But it’s not a business, right?

  Good grief.

  No offence, but I can’t even be bothered reading the rest of your post. You REALLY don’t know what you’re talking about. You know neither how business operates nor how Amway operates.

  Go take some business night classes or something first and then get back to me and we can discuss how Amway operates.

• Yesterday I met up with an old friend who I had not seen in Years. We used to work together, and I really wanted to have some coffee and catch up. She had told me she was involved with starting her own business. I was impressed and even told another one of my friends wow Im really proud of this girl I saw the other day, makes me wanna step up.

  REALITY CHECK

  She told me we were going to a meeting with some of her friends to speak about it. As soon as we pulled up in this dim lit little office complex, I started cracking jokes about how I felt like I was being led into getting jumped or something. I totally recognized the non-legitimacy of this whole thing right away. There was a packed room full of people. They all started speaking in a cult-like way…like in rehearsed sentences. I laughed out loud at how goofy the whole thing was. I sat through the meeting and watched as the speaker charmed the audience and spoke about how great this whole opportunity was. At the end, I felt like a bunch of cyborgs were trying to snatch my brain. I told her look….I want to go. We had coffee and talked. After I dropped her off, I realized she was trying to use me as a score on her sucker card. The whole system design really is evil and is fueled by the destruction of other people’s hope and faith.

  Get a grip on yourself if you should even begin to consider throwing your money at something so ridiculous as Amway scheme

• “she was trying to use me as a score on her sucker card. The whole system design really is evil and is fueled by the destruction of other people’s hope and faith.”

  RealityCheck Thanks for a hilarious scenario so many of us have experienced.

  What’s funny is that ibofb and other AmBorgs spend endless hours filling up these pages with all kinds of logical sounding and carefully constructed arguments for the legitimacy of Amway. Try as they might, it all goes out the window when someone shares an account of these silly and deceptive ploys Amway uses to add to its “sucker card.” (LOL)

  I mean, I remember me brother recounting how a friend tricked him into coming over for a get together that he swore was not an Amway presentation. It turned out that it was and the guy lost a bunch of friends cuz he got brainwashed into becoming an Amway sleazebot. And this was back in the 70s! They already had a sleazy cheezy reputation all the way back then.

  ibofb, you can give all the slick arguments and Amspeak you want, but the rest of us still wonder: what legitimate company conducts itself like this? Or lets others conduct themselves like this in their name?

• A legitimate company doesn’t conduct itself in that manner. Well … nothing in “reality check”‘s story is especially problematic. A friend offered to show him a business opportunity. That’s what happened. Just because “reality check” doesn’t accept that reality doesn’t change it.

  On the other hand, your brother’s story is clearly deception. I would hope someone reported the behaviour to Amway so that they *could* do something about it. If they don’t know about it, how else could they?

  Oh … but then, you mention this was in the 70s. That was 40 years ago, “guest”, you might want to check a calendar.

• It is so clearly strange, cultish, and aimed to screw over these poor naive souls. One of the funniest parts at this little “gathering” was observing these torn raggedy boxes of this XS energy drink they claim is so special. I asked my friend…. Oh , do we get free samples ? She was like no….that is thiers… so basically you have a room full of very gullible or very slow ( we will not count the demons in suits who are the ones actually profiting off cheating these poor people …. I wonder how they sleep at night) …….all carrying around their boxes of energy drink because they are the only people to actually buy these things , and they feel somehow like they are profiting ? So okay….just because you get a couple dollars basically off your overpriced purchase does not mean you have a business and are making money…. Just because I catch a dollar off deal at the store does not mean I am profiting…it means im spending less…so please poor soul if you are reading this and can possibly be snapped out of it … spend less of your time and energy and money on this junk…and guess what… youll have more money…and more friends because if you go along on this deluded path of thinking you will scare everyone off…

• Ibofbk, forgive me for using or having used personal attacks or demeaning terms against you. I know I should remind myself to state the facts and use logic. So I am sorry and I apologize to you…

  However, I still hold the statements about Amway being a business opportunity, and not a shopping club. And Amway IBOs (at least as I can remember) don’t present the plan as a shopping club. I think even Amway website does not say it as shopping club, but a business opportunity. And that’s why to me, and using my logic, even ordering products for personal consumption should be taken as a business activity, not a shopping club activity.

  Also, real estate agents (at least in my state) cannot own real estate companies. Only real estate brokers can own a real estate company and hire real estate agents . Real estate agents themselves cannot hire other agents directly—their sponsoring broker has to do that for them via the sponsoring broker’s company.

• Explorer,

  (1) In your earlier post you complained about me (allegedly) using words in such a way as to redefine their meaning for my own purposes. That’s exactly what you are doing. You are arbitrarily deciding what is a “business activity” and doing so contrary to accepted meanings of the term. While language is flexible and to a certain extent people all use words slightly differently, in a discussion like this we really need to agree on an independent arbitrator of what “business activity” is and whether you’re engaged in a business. My preference is to rely on those who determine such definitions officially, ie government bodies such as the IRS.

  You may want to review the IRS audit guide section on direct selling which specifically addresses the factors they use to decide if someone is operating a business in this industry. For example –

  The test to determine whether a taxpayer conducted an activity for profit is whether they engaged in that activity with an objective of earning a profit

  Shopping for personal use does not have an “objective of earning a profit”

  They also address personal use more directly –

  “However, the cost of a product that is used by the direct seller is a personal expense”

  York cannot take a deduction for the cost of any of these products. Because she uses them in her own home for personal reasons, their cost is not a cost of doing business.

  Clearly you disagree with this understanding of the terms. Do you have another suggestion as for an independent, reliable source for defining terms used in this discussion?

  (2) Laws regarding real estate vary considerably between jurisdictions. The IRS however considers real estate agents to be in business with most operating as sole proprietorships.

• Actually that link confirms what I say about real estate agents working under a broker, rather than opening a company. If you look on the bottom, under real estate agents: “Their services are performed under a written contract providing that they will not be treated as employees for Federal tax purposes”
  I never said that they are not self employed, but you did make the point that they are considered by the IRS as sole proprietorship operating their own business. What I was originally saying about real estate agents is that if you ask them if they own their own business, I belive that most of them will say “no, but I am self employed”.

  However,I think it is a good idea to use the government papers and IRS documents as reference for the meaning of terms that we use, as you have suggested.

  According to the link you provided above, people not engaged in working their business with the intent to make a profit, are either considered to be involve in a not-for-profit activit or a hobby. See here for additional link. That will make at least 77.1% of ibos fall in this category. But I should note it is possible that some IBOs could be claiming business expenses even when involved in a “not for profit activities” http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2011/07/26/drag-racing-and-amway-fun-not-profit/ . What i don’t known is if these cases represent simply the tip of the ice berg or jus the few exceptions. What is clear is that If an ibo belongs to 77.1% or even perhaps of the rest of which we don’t know their profits, they should consider carefully what expenses to file on their tax returns.

  It seems to me thatThe IRS does not make it clear weather ordering products should be consider a recreational activity or as fuled by the intent to make a profit. Here is a segment from the link you previously provided.

  “Factor 9 (Elements of Personal Pleasure or Recreation) – Profit need not be the only objective, and personal motives may coexist with an actual and honest intent to derive a profit. In Minnick, the court found the significance of personal motives difficult to gauge. On the one hand, petitioners expended a substantial amount of time in activities, such as driving long distances that would appear to lack elements of pleasure or recreation. On the other hand, much of petitioners’ activities involved elements that were very personal in nature, such as frequently visiting family members who were also involved in the same business. (Factor determined to be neutral.)

  Analysis: The direct seller can enjoy his/her business and receive personal pleasure from it, but still be engaged in it for profit. It should be considered whether any significant recreational or entertainment element was ordinary and necessary to grow the business. (Is the direct seller engaged in the activity for personal pleasure or for the building of a business that will create income? Is the direct seller engaged in the business because he or she likes the product and all the amenities that go along with it?)

  The direct sellers’ business requires meeting people and carrying on active social interaction– recruiting other sellers and selling to ultimate individual purchasers. Normally, a prudent direct seller organizes various quasi-social environments in which to market its products or connect with ‘prospects,’ which often involves family, friends, and acquaintances. These business activities should not be discounted on their face if they can be shown to have been appropriate and helpful in developing the business.” —end of quote

  What do you make, for example, of an individual ordering products with the intent to either use them in demonstration/business presentation, or to get familiarized with them to better sell them—how can you know their mind and intentions when ordering?

  By the way how do you make links work in this blogg?

• If you are self-employed, then by definition you are operating a business. Indeed in many places you will be required to get a business licence. A quick google finds that real estate agents (and brokers) in the US are commonly required to get business licences (eg Nevada

  If many jurisdictions require you to get a business licence for performing a particular activity I don’t think you can argue that because some don’t, then it’s not a business.

  But back to the Amway “personal shopping” question.

  (a) yes there’s people claiming expenses they shouldn’t be. As Reilly points out the IRS catches up with some of them. As I pointed out to Reilly, compared to the numbers of IBOs it’s tiny. I don’t think it’s widespread, I’d venture that close to all of that 77.1% don’t bother to record expenses in order to claim them!

  (b) Ordering products for the purpose of demo/familiarity is a business activity, but in itself is not sufficient to define you as having a business. Ordering products primarily for personal consumption is *not* a for profit activity. This is made especially clear by the fact that if you earn a rebate on personal purchases, that rebate is not taxable income – ie it’s not profit.

  You can do links using standard html tags

• I don’t think operating a business is the same as business ownership.

  Real estate agents in my state hold real estate salesperson license. They are not required to obtain an additional business license with the state. Additionally, even when an agent takes a property listing, the wording in the listing states that the broker is the owner of that listing and sets the agent as the designated agent. Since you mentioned Nevada, See a Las Vegas listing agreement: http://www.act4u.com/lvre/contracts/c1_List.pdf and look at #8.

  But If you want to define business ownership as holding a state business license, that will make Nevada agents business owners, but the rest in other states none-business owners. Incidentally, that will disqualify all IBOs from being business owners no matter how much business they produce.

  That’s why I believe that when talking about this we have to bring the common language factor. I believe that to most people, owning your own business means having an official name/ a permanent business location from which the business operates. In most cases, you are able to collect income directly from the source (not paid a commission or bonus after someone else collected for you), You are the one who ultimately makes the decisions for the company. you do all the management and accounting either directly or indirectly by hiring help. You are not bound to abide with the restrictions, or policies that the ones above you (ie, the ones who owns the company in which you work ) set for you. I might be wrong on this, but that is how I have been using those terms when communicating. It will be good to hear from someone else on this.

  Conclusions about what I have learn about Amway so far…

  I like to state the facts, and am not an Amway critic as you might think, so
  If only 77.1% are not making it in the business, but the rest ARE getting a profit (which I don’t know yet), I don’t think that Amway can be considered a bad business opportunity because of this, being that i read somewhere that only about 44% of traditional business make it past the 5th year. And this is assuming that the 21% of IBOs that are left are making a time-worth-it profit (which I also don’t know yet)

  I am no one to be interpreting the statistics. I only did this exchange to express my questions and doubts about Amway. In the end, I realize that I really don’t know, and I am not going to try to bash amway without really knowing all the implications (or without being sure if I am doing good or wrong) because I am really not an expert in this subject. As i said before, I have to be honest about the fact that I know about 3 very successful IBOs Who no longer hold jobs) and about 1 I know is making an OK income (but still holds a job), and 3 who are said to also be very successful in the business. So I can’t say it doesn’t work at all. I also have known a couple IBOs who retail—so again, can’t say is not a genuine business opportunity, you can retail if you want. I also know of IBOs who do not seem to me to have made it big in Amway as the 7 ibos i mentioned, some as I said before, have been in there for years.

  As for the surveys, I don’t believe those surveys. Because (1) they are commissioned by Amway (2) If someone paid for a business opportunity, one will think that they will at least give it a try (3) As far as i am aware of, most IBOs I know, attend meeting (some of them have invited me in the past), have intended to make a sale ( have seen a couple talking about the business to others, inlcuding to me).

  I also think that the Amway critics who are genuinely trying to help others are actually doing a valuable work. It is because of them that we know many thing that I doubt we would have known about amway, such as the tool business (which in my opinions, should be made free or at production cost to IBOs). If Amway is running a mafia like system, It should definitely be exposed.

  Reasons why I entered in this discussion…

  I was once considering entering in the amway business. I felt this pulling force, but then decided not to. But there are many things that I either did not understand, or simply did not sounded quite right to me, things such as:
  it’s all about points. Helping others. Negative thinking vs positive (positive being in favor of amway of course) without any regards to what is true or not. In a meeting people saying to each other that the meeting was beautiful, and they appeared to me as people who come from a religious gathering sayings “what a beautiful message was prophesized today”, when the meeting was actually ordinary or boring to me. Hearing of people bringing notebooks, writing, worrying about not missing an important word.Or as I remember in one meeting, satarting a prayer before the meeting.

  So for one reason or the other, I felt the impulse to comment as well, while concentrating on facts and logic. There is one thing I learned from you though, and that is to get my research from credible sources as much as possible. As I said before, I only like facts and that which is true, and I did not mean to cause any discouragement to or loss of business to any IBO—again, my opinions is just an opinion, and I really don’t know…

  gook luck to all

• Where did that 77.1% figure come from? I believe that less than 5% of IBO’s make money. I read somwhere (cannot recall) that Amway in the US did a billion in sales and paid out something like 350 million in bonus. There are around 350,000 IBO’s in the US so that’s like an average of $100 per IBO per month. I know that a lot of IBO’s don’t do squat so if half do crap, then the average is $200 per month per IBO. Factoring in some of the Amway millionaires like Dexter Yager and others, I would make a guess that the average UB IBO makes around $100 a month or so. Those are the ones doing something. But analyzing the Amway plan, I’d say most IBO’s make diddly squat and a handful (5%) might make some money. I can’t see it any other way.

• I wasn’t aware of those numbers. If that is the case that will be somthing to look at.

  Perhaps IBOFBK can tell us where to find the numbers of ibos, and the bonus Amway pays for a that particular year.

• You might need a torch, since if you want to “look at” those figures I suspect you’ll find them somewhere up “guest”‘s a**.

  The link I have already provided you, more than once (you want to consider reading it) says that in North America

  * Nearly 300,000 were paid a bonus in 2010
  * 46% of IBOs were considered “active”
  * IBOs getting a bonus is a subset of “active”
  * Over $4,000,000,000 has been paid out over the last decade

  So, there were actually somewhere around 650000 IBOs, more than half of which didn’t pretty much nothing, and most of the rest of which did almost nothing. We’ve already well covered this, so it raises the question as to why you didn’t query “guest”‘s figures on activity?

  Again, as already discussed, “average” is, at best, a meaningless statistic for this dataset. But if you insist in knowing it anyway then why bother with “guest”‘s guesstimates instead of using the actual reported figure of $202/month?

• and that by the way, was a lesson in what happens if you don’t do close an HTML anchor link tag properly :) Sorry about that!

• The reason why I did not asked guest and I asked you instead, is because, as I said before, one of the thing that at least I learned here from you (actually is more like that you reminded me of to put into practice, since I learned it years back in college) is how to use credible internet sources and the importance of it; and being that you like to use numbers a lot I thought you might know. I’ll look at the source some of these days. However, in your above number, I did not see a specific paid amount for 2010. I was interested in the numbers of IBOs for that year and the total amount paid for that year, so maybe I can find that info there.
  However, I am trying to stay away from the debate because I am working on a project right now and that takes time away from me….maybe joecool can comment on this.

• @Explorer, you can see where IBOFBCK manipulates and tries to throw you off. I said Amway paid out around 350 million in bonus (In one year). IBOFBCK says they paid out 4 billion in the last decade. It’s just about what I said. So what if Amway paid out 400 million instead of 350 billion. WIth hundreds of thousands of IBO’s, these IBO’s would still need food stamps if they counted on Amway as their main source of income. From what I can gather, Amway had around 350,000 IBO’s back in 1970 and they have around the same amount today. They only replace the ones who see the scam and run away which is why the numbers are about the same now as 40 years ago.

• I did notice that IBOFBK did not include the specific amount paid for the year stated. Perhaps that info is in the link provided—I’ll check it later

• Amway is not a scam> I have been a member for at least 6 years. The only problem I have with Amway is that the company is geared for those who have the income to invest and targets those with with income to invest. If you are lower class or even considered middle class and have a family; ALOT OF TIME WILL BE SPENT WITH AMWAY. Its life if you want something in life ….majority of time you have to (work hard) to get.

  I tried to make the buisness work but just didnt have the time nor funds. I made a total of 48 bucks for the entire 6 years . I put more out on the first day of signing up than i got for the entire 6 years .

  IF YOU DONT HAVE THE TIME OR MONEY ….PLEASE DONT GET SUCKERED IN LIKE I DID. GAME OVA

• I live in the DC metro area and was approached by a guy in Best Buy about a “business opportunity”. The word Amway was never mentioned once in the entire conversation. Instead, the focus was on his business and how there was a solid opportunity that shouldn’t be missed. I figured it can’t hurt, so I was open to listening. Even on his business card, it said nothing of Amway. The guy forwarded me a link to my email of his business which explored social networking. Again, kind of vague. It all came together when I went to my first Amway meeting.

  Going in, I had no idea this was Amway. They all took pride in calling themselves entrepreneurs and were all extremely upbeat, positive, and social. The whole session was interesting, but when the speaker started talking about using your existing social networks on Facebook to potentially mine for sales clients…I was a little put off.

  At this point, I basically said to my “sponsor”, thanks but no thanks. However, he was strategic about his approach. He stayed away for a while, but came back later with a new opportunity to explore the world of the business. Honestly, even though I wasn’t all that attracted to the business itself, I figured I may give it a go simply because it is taking me out of my comfort zone, is something brand new, involves numerous highly optimistic, social people, and seems harmless.

  We reconnected, my sponsor and I, and I laid out the cash to get up and rolling. Every word out of my sponsor’s mouth was a battle cry for victory. He did not know the meaning of defeat, or even the prospect of failing. He was relentless in his perspective that he is “winning”. He is victorious in life and life is his to be conquered. It’s here that I began to think that he is brainwashed. He seemed almost in denial to some things. Intentionally avoiding reality and choosing to be absorbed in a false notion. Weird.

  After I was up and rolling, I attended the meetings, attended the social events, and mingled. I bought a bunch of stuff to meet the monthly PV goals, and also sold what I could. The selling was a lot more difficult than just buying the items myself. Even though the quality of the products are quite good, the prices are not exactly bargains.

  After a few months of doing this, I realized that pitching products to family and friends, and in turn, alienating some of them, was not something I wanted to pursue any longer. It quickly became unappealing. And all the friendships made through Amway were friendships crafted through the desire for money. They were all financial transactions in form and substance. I was encouraged strongly to constantly bring new people in, and get them involved. Essentially, I would instruct them in the very same way that I was instructed by my sponsor. Inevitably, I would do my best to mentor them so that they have success, and their success became my success. Once one starts picturing how big the web can be, it can be hard to disengage.

  My sponsor embodied very strong conservative Christian beliefs. He seemed to be infatuated with the Bible, and quoted freely from it. I think he thought of himself as a spiritual warrior as well as an entrepreneur. But it’s not his products that he’s selling. It’s Amway’s products. And he wasn’t a savior; he is just a guy doing the best he can to motivate others to…sell products that are overpriced.

  When I finally disentangled myself, he expectedly did not take it well. In so many words, he told me that your life won’t be very meaningful once you leave Amway. He also said that he’ll make a ton of money and is a part of a multi-million dollar business. That’s all well and fine, but does he actually expect to be making millions? He is definitely brain washed by his upline guys. There’s pictures of them rolling around in Ferraris and beautiful women…I guess he thinks this is his future.

  In any case, I think the Amway business succeeds….at being a total failure. Why encourage marketing to family and friends? What does this say about the seller? That they value what the people closest to them can do for them on a monetary basis? What happens when the answer is no? Does this mean that this friend or family member is reprehensible or a traitor? Also, the products Amway makes can be bought at more or less the same quality at Target or Walmart, but cheaper. What’s so special about Amway? Nothing. Starting a “business” is very different than “selling Amway stuff””.

  And why the false sense of optimism, even when the reality is staring you right in the face? I suppose that a lot of these hardcore Amway folks are brainwashed into thinking that displaying vulnerability, or anything that might make you appear…human, is weakness. Too bad.

  I think the correct term is used by the poster above, Terrance, “suckered”. Please don’t get suckered in. It all will look appealing. The Amway rep will likely be extraordinarily charismatic, friendly, social, and overall look like a very successful person. The people he’s associated with will also be a positive, engaging bunch. However, beneath the surface lies a business, if it can be called that, which is a sham and a waste of time.

• Wally:

  Thanks for a great story. I can relate.

  Sad that so many others are starting up MLMs using the same tawdry tactics.

  Read about Scentsy and how this woman was tricked into attending a sales presentation. The Scentsy reps argue that lying is somehow acceptable.

  http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/scentsy-multilevel-marketing-scam/

• look people the bottom line is this bussiness works if you work it. nothing worthwhile having is easily obtained. even if i never make money being amongst people who love life is a blessing in itself. also i believe if you are not interested QUIT trashing another persons chance to achieve success in it. This bussiness is NOT for everyone just as the finer things in life are reserved for the few who refuse to give up on their Dreams. . . Thank you to all you negative people who let us know we are in the right place at the right time. . . . Salmon swims upstream and is met with major resistance, just like us Amway distributors. All the best of luck and hope you find something else to do that helps you grow as a person. GO DIAMOND!!!!!!!!

• The part that most people dont get is that this oppertunity does not discrimenate and you dont need anything but a dream to be driven. I hav truly investigated it from the inside been in for two years not really doing anything but investigating , i have found that you come in all exited not knowing the first thing about bussiness then you get the option to learn from someone who knows how to make whatever you need. wether it be an extra 100.00 or 2500.00. As long as you are teachable and willing to take charge and start leading anything is possible. do you know how it feels when you have been able to help someone make enough to pay for schoolfees, buying clothes or just getting rid of that extra credit card. Of course without a plan you cannot. I am thankfull to this oppertunity for giving me the chance to help others who really need it more than i do….

• Rolande: Are you aware that the vast majority of distributors will not even make a dime? And by make I mean actually profit. So if your “trying” to help people make money and get out of debt, yes you may help a couple people (highly unlikely), but you will also be hurting hundreds if not thousands of others by sucking their income in order to “help others”. This business is a leach that sucks “the majority of distributors” money, real relationships, and lives from right in front of their faces. Once you run out of blood (money), they will latch onto someone else and do the same. Amway distributor complain about and also knock on jobs, but the reality is that if you didn’t have a job you couldn’t support your Amway addiction. I also love how you people, yes I said you people talk about how you are retiring doctors, teachers, and high paid professionals. These types of people in Amway may be helping a couple people turn a profit, but how many lives would they have impacted and possibly saved by doing what they were called to do. That doctor may have cured cancer or AIDs saving millions, but instead he got in Amway and helped a handful of people earn an extra $100. The problem with Amway distributors is that have a one track mind and can only think inside the Amway box. Some of these so called leaders are putting the blinders on you mules and teaching you to only trust what they tell you. I mean come on, they make a million dollars a year so you have to listen to them. Just because someone makes a ton of money does not mean you should listen to and cling to every word they say. If we all took that mentality on we would all be drones. I’m not saying they are brainwashing people, but I’m also not saying they’re not. Anyways good luck to you in your future endeavors and just so it’s clear. I will be sleeping with “peace of mind” knowing that I made the best decision of my life to get out of Amway before it screwed me up. Yes I am a quitter of Amway and so proud of that! Since I’ve been out of Amway I have received a $10k increase in pay and will be using my college degree to double my salary now that I can focus on the real world ad not get caught up in Amway, which held me back from making more money and getting promoted. Good luck to all who are chasing “the dream”, you will need it. You have a better chance of winning the lottery.

• @”Terrance on February 9th, 2012 7:56 am

  “Amway is not a scam> I have been a member for at least 6 years…I made a total of 48 bucks for the entire 6 years . I put more out on the first day of signing up than i got for the entire 6 years.”

  Terrence you just provided the reason why it’s scamway! For 6 years you bought scamway wampum and motivational tools. Who laughed all the way to the bank with your money? Are your kind the majority or the minority? Open your eyes a little wider and multiply what you expended by the number of claimed current adherents and you will see a few somebodys are sitting pretty up the pyramid.

• @rolande

  You said “if i never make money being amongst people who love life is a blessing in itself. ” Then how can you be of any help at all as in “I am thankfull to this oppertunity for giving me the chance to help others who really need it more than i do….” You already said you have “been in for two years not really doing anything but investigating…” Woe unto the people who listen to you or more aptly those “others who really need it more than i do….” that will take on your help.

  Two years is a long time doing nothing, investigating (remember it’s a 2-5 yr plan, what’s your plan?). Secondly it doesn’t have to cost you 100pv ($250-$300) plus tools, every month even you don’t make money just to be “amongst people who love life…” The essence of a business is making money, profit, it a business does not make money it has no business being in business. I advance you that you are partaking in a very expensive hobby on your part and somebody else is on the receiving end of your cash and very happy about it! But then again it’s your money who cares. Just don’t try to justify that that is the reason others should partake in the same ilk. Some of us can see scam game if you can’t or won’t. We look at the numbers and then call a scam a scam. I have no time to trash a legitimate opportunity. Amway doesn’t need me to trash it – their numbers do a good job trashing it’s so called opportunity.

• Curious as to what Amway is, I decided to check out this post. Being an active member in others, i very quickly recognized a repeat poster who believes IT can bully people into feeling like crap about what they do for a living. At the same time, IT also calls them liars, thieves, scum, and various other insults.

  From personal experience, I can now give you all a valuable piece of advice: BEWARE OF “GUEST”. Engaging in any type of adult conversation or debate is humanly impossible with IT and will only leave you desperately wanting to castrate the world with the hopes of never again producing another IT.

  I think bottom line is this. These MLM companies are making money. They are not getting wiped out, and continue to make money. Obviously if what they were doing was illegal, they would be no longer.

  Just felt the need to put that disclaimer out there. IT has nothing better to do than cyberbully. That is all. Thank you.

• Amwhat: Yes, MLM companies are making money but the amount the copany makes doesn’t mean you made a cent. Misguided people are bragging about the 10 billion in sales that Amway did, but fail to mention that they as IBOs still made little or nothing.

  Nobody is saying that the MLM is illegal, it’s just not profitable for the IBOs.

• i can’t believe i read all this in 48 hours. i joined amway south africa and wasn’t very cult like people claim. i guess america gets cult like. just look at all the religous people it pumps out. what got me involved is the transparency at the meeting. they say things like, “if you treat it like a hobby it will pay you like one.” also they told me that most people don’t make it because they don’t do the work. long story short i was happy with the business potential but didn’t get far.

• i did however venture in to a better deal that requires zero start up costs and a decent pay out plan. respectively. it works anywhere in the world and unlike amway, it is and will always be free.

  i find the compensation plan a lot more lucrative than amway. even though i must say, they have amazing products. i am not going to leave amway but putting on hold for a while. i will keep you guys posted on my results when the time comes.

• I was introduced to Amway back in the early 90’s and am being propositioned again to join just recently. I dont care for anyone else’s opinion but in MY, read it, MY, not yours, not to the new recruit who’s defending Amway or the self-proclaimed millionaire, MY opinion, it is a scam.

  Yes, it takes a lot of work to succeed in business, especially one of your own, but it takes a whole lot more work to succeed in Amway. Like pyramid schemes, which Amway likes to distant itself from, the more the lower echelon recruits buy and sell, the more the higher ups make more money.

  To those who are in it, just joined it, or have awakened to realize what it really is, good luck to all of you.

  Cheers!