IS AMWAY A SCAM?

1,020 thoughts on “IS AMWAY A SCAM?”

• “That’s likely why people like Shekhar don’t bother. Why should they? To have people keep telling them that red is blue?”

  For those of you who don’t know, Shekhar was a hopelessly deluded IBO who posted on here. Go under your “Edit” menu in the IE taskbar, choose “Find on this page” and enter “shekhar” to read some of his excited pro-Amway utterances – despite the fact he had been struggling for 3 YEARS to generate any income whatsoever. He kept buying the tools, attending rah-rah brainwash meetings, buying lots of products, sinking more and more money he didn’t have to lose.

  Read through those comments and let me know why he is no longer here? Too smart, like ibofb claims?

  More likely that he is now divorced, miserable, broker than ever and now friendless as he annoyed away everyone who cared about him. Now that he can’t afford tools, meetings or products, it’s likely his good Amway friends want nothing to do with him either.

  Too smart? More likely that he can’t afford Internet.

• This was the last post I saw posted by “Shekhar”

  Shekhar on October 8th, 2011 7:59 pm

  My marriage has ended. I have no more savings. My rooms are full of products I cannot use. I am in financial ruin and I have no money to retire with.
  Amway has ruined me. I should have listened. I was so sure this would work out.

• So there you go promoting something you know is almost certainly a fraud again, joecool. Wouldn’t be surprised if you were the one who posted it in the first place, given your past history.

  Any particular reason why you removed the following from that comment before reposting it?

  NOTE: That this comment was posted by the same pro-Amway “Shekhar” who regularly posted earlier has not been confirmed. The comment author should contact UnhappyFranchisee[at]gmail to confirm identity.

  Don’t bother replying, I already know why. You have no integrity.

• IBOFB – Faux Q.

  I didn’t post that comment and it WAS the last post by someone named Shekhar. That is a fact.

  You make it sound like his comment is uncommon in Amway. It isn’t.

  You’re just a shameless dishonest Amway apologist. Even when there is overwhelming evidence that the most IBOs make nothing, and in fact suffer losses if involved in tools. The average IBO makes less than a newspaper boy. Those are facts whether you like then or not.

• I remember that Shekhar and Ibo fight back talked about exchanging emails to communicate. So if ibofback has Shekhar email, he might know what happened to Shekhar. Shekhar never refuted the earlier comment about losing in amway; one would guess that having been a fierce defender of Amway, he would have no problem sharing his success, (if he had it) to show everyone how he was right about him making it in Amway

• (1) provide evidence it is “common”
  (1a) also explain why all these people in such financial trouble simply didn’t return the products for a refund? Is it perhaps because they knew that by inventory loading they were breaking Amway’s rules and defrauding Amway and (potentially) their upline to receive unearned commissions? Or is it because it’s actually very rare?

  (2) provide evidence that most IBOs suffer losses. This will presumably require some kind of official statistics on IBO expenses. Do you have them?

  (3) provide evidence that the “average IBO” earns a lower hourly rate than a newspaper boy. This will presumably require some kind of official statistics on IBO’s hours worked. Do you have them?

• explorer – I never had any contact with him apart from on this page. His last comment (before the obviously fake one) was along the lines of “no point arguing with these people”, ie he’s had enough, ciao.

• 1) The internet is loaded with stories like this. Are you saying they are all fake?

  2) IBOFB’s own statement verifies that mist IBOs lose. IBOFB says “most do nothing and quit”. That alone would indicate that these folks at least lost the cost of the registration fee and possibly some other materials. IBOs in the tool systems apparently lose the most.

  3) A newspaper boy in my neighborhood earns about $5 per month (not including gratuity) for each home that he/she delivers to. A typical route consists of about 100 homes. That’s more than the “average IBO income”. For a reference point, I was a 4000 and worked about 20 hours a week for a net profit of zero. My downlines worked similar hours for a loss. Frankly, the ones who did nothing and quit were better off.

• (1) How many is “loaded”? Given the (likely) tens of millions of people who have given Amway a try over the years, how many would it take to be “common” in your book?

  (2) If you pay the registration fee, you get what you paid for – access to the products and services (including websites). How is it “losing money” if they paid for something and got that something?
  (2a) Please provide statistics on how many people get refunds on registration fees. You’d need to know this to make the claim you made, so please share it with the rest of us

  (3) In answer (2) you argue that “most do nothing”, and in answer (3) you apparently argue that the average IBO works 20 hours a week – which is it?

  (3a) Please provide more information on your downline. How many did you have? Are you seriously claiming they were *all* putting in 20 hours a week? Really? That is such an incredible number that is completely outside the norm for any type of voluntary action, including other sales businesses, as well as completely outside the norm for reported statistics within the direct sales/MLM industry, that some sort of confirmation is needed.
  (3b) Oh wait, you then said there were ones who did nothing. Which is it? Your using Amway’s “average income” and “active” definitions, so that means all IBOs that attended even one meeting, received even on bonus, asked even one person if they wanted to buy something, or showed just one plan. The average for IBOs doing this in your business was 20hrs/week?

  Uhuh,

• 1) Loaded. Stop asking loaded questions. There are countless stories on the net of abuse by upline leaders. A single testimony could represent tens of thousands of people who heard the same thing. A good example if your friend Shaun who run the Expeditions of truth blog. Apparently WWDB still teaches the 2% divorce rate lie.

  2) If you paid the registration fee and did nothing, then you lost money. There aren’t scads of people asking for refunds. You know this but continue to divert.

  3) No – YOU said most IBOs do nothing. I said I put in 20 hours a week, along with my downline. This is a good example of how you take things out of context and twist it around to represent something I didn’t say.

  3a) My efforts have no effect on your efforts. Since IBOs don’t disclose information about their groups (including you), I have no obligation to disclose this to you for scrutiny.

  3b) The average income did not count those who “did nothing”. The average income was those who received a bonus, thus they had to do something. The average income also counted the crown ambassadors who drive up the average.
  The fact that you continue to imply that the average IBO can attend a meeting and earn a bonus shows your dishonesty.

• (1) Asking you to provide evidence for your claims is a “loaded question”? Hilarious. But hey, I’ll play – let’s say there’s been 10 million IBOs, and each complaint represents 10,000 IBOs (ridiculous asserion) and that it’s “common” … which is what …. say the experience of at least half? Please provide 500 stories. I can count to 500, so that’s not even close to countless.

  (2) you got the books, the websites, and almost certainly a discounted product pack. You can get a refund on all of this if you don’t think it was value. Yet exceedingly few people ever ask. So where’s your evidence? Or is this just your opinion?

  (3a) So all of your downline put in 20hours a week? Uhuh. Please offer some evidence to support this incredible claim. Didn’t someone claim one of your downline has since gone platinum, and you acknowledged the possibility? How are you privy to their profit/loss statements? How were you privy to the profit/loss statements of all of your downline?

  You and other critics regularly demand people provide proof they made a profit with Amway – will you post your Schedule C(?) to show your loss, as well as the records of your business?

  (3b) So you believe that registering with Amway simply to buy an eSpring at discounted price for personal use (I’ve had people do that) should make an IBO money and be included in discussions of how viable it is as a business?

  I never even remotely said that an IBO can attend a meeting and earn a bonus, au contraire. You are one that insists that these people should be considered as trying as hard as a newspaper boy to make money and should be included in any discussion of incomes, not me. As far as I (and the IRS) are concerned, someone who just attends one meeting isn’t even remotely operating a business.

• 1) Google Amway scam or amway horror stories. Thousands of stories of people who got scammed, ripped off. Why you try to deny this is puzzling. Amway’s reputation in the US is in the toilet. The Dateline story didn’t help Amway either.

  2) Provide evidence that all these folks got refunds. Your close connections to Amway should render this easy and settle the matter once and for all.

  3) See how you distort. I never said my entire group did 20 hours each. But I had a good core of them who did what I did. That’s how I got to 4000 PV. The problem was that 4000 was not profitable. Why would I post a schedule C? I’m not recruiting anyone to join Amway. I’ve already explained many times about how I was able to not make a profit at that level. I don’t see a need repeat my self, especially when you fail to reciprocate.

  3b) Why don’t you prove that people join just to buy stuff cheaper? You’re the one saying it. I highly doubt that there are many people like this, especially when Amway products are overpriced.

  Me and my group (and we’re not alone) are a good example of those who did the work and did not make any money. Indeed my downline lost money. Why you continue to debate this makes you look silly.

• (1) Sorry, but you’re lying. I already did that and posted the statistics on the old QuixtarBlog forums you participated in, so you’re familiar with them. If I’m wrong, prove it.

  (2) Your making the claim, it’s your job to support it.

  (3) You said “my downline”, not “some of my downline” and you gave 20hrs/wk as average work time. So you’re admitting now that your downline didn’t average 20hrs/wk, only some of them did? What percentage?

  (3a) So your saying that people should just believe you but anyone who disagrees with you has to offer proof?

  (3b) I earlier provided links to surveys of people’s motivations for joining direct selling companies. Do you agree that if somebody wanted to buy an eSpring, then it would make financial sense to register with Amway and get distributor pricing? That it would be a sensible thing to do?

  (4) You claim to have a made a loss at 4000PV, and have explained previously that you had high travel expenses (Hawaii to the mainland). Do you acknowledge that not all Amway IBOs have such high travel expenses?

• 1) Since you are a known liar, you can’t be trusted. Post your links to the Qblog forum where you “proved it”

  2) Most people simply do not renew. You know this but you want to twist and divert the truth.

  3) There you go, twisting semantics again. Do you not possess any logic?

  3a) I’m giving my testimony and experience. I don’t need to prove something that I experienced. You have yet to demonstrate that more than 1% of people ever succeed in Amway by making a net profit equal to minimum wage for the hours they put in.

  3b) I disagree, especially when you can find these items for a fraction of the price on craigllist, ebay or Amazon. And that also provides evidence that IBOs are not returning products to Amway for a full refund.

  4) I said I made nothing at 4000. I did have travel expenses. Not all IBOs have the same expenses. But some IBOs might have even greater expenses. Even if I had less expenses, the money I would have made would be less than if I just worked a second job. I also did not see that going platinum would have made it any better.

• (1) You’re just providing evidence of your dishonesty now, joecool.You well know those forums are no more. But hey, go do the analysis yourself and show us these “thousands” of stories

  (2) So?

  (3a) You use your experience as support that your results are common, yet admit your situation was not common. That would be like me using Rich DeVos as evidence that most people make money in Amway. I’ve never made the claim you’re demanding I provide evidence for, why should I have to provide evidence for it?

  (3b) There are currently 3 available on ebay with a possible end auction price below IBO price. There are none cheaper on Amazon – many for sale, all significantly higher than IBO price. There were non on craiglist hawaii. None on craigslist SF.1 new one on craigslist fort lauderdale, much more expensive than IBO price.

  Oh … and none in the countries where I had distributors do this

  Not exactly an easy find, and many people would prefer the option of purchasing from an authorised supplier. Also, if you’re buying eSprings to fraudulently qualify for a higher bonus level, it would not make economic sense to return them. We’re talking about people who are claiming to be broke and penniless with a garage full of product, which was your claim

  (4) did anyone suggest to you that a 4000PV Amway business would earn you more than a second job? Can you please advise of second jobs that pay over $40000/yr, before retail profit, expenses, tax deductions, and free luxury trips?

• 1) The forum is no more but you cite that as your “proof”? Please.

  2) So – you twist the truth.

  3) My experience is not uncommon. I sat in functions with more than ten thousand IBOs. There were big functions often going on in various locations across the US, primarily on the west coast.

  3b) So you have confirmed that IBOs are selling stuff instead of returning them. Pont made. I never said anything about someone being broke with a garage full of stuff, Now you’re making things up or misquoting me.

  4) My upline said at 4000 PV, (I had the correct patameters), my NET profit would be over $1000. My net profit was zero.

• (1)no, I didn’t cite it as proof your claim is wrong. I cited it as evidence that I know you know you are lying, since I know you saw the data when it was posted. The “proof” doesn’t need the Qblog forums. Anyone can actually do the search you suggest and find there are *not* these thousands of examples you claim

  (2) Nope, it means your comment had nothing to do with the issue that I could see, so please explain it’s relevance

  (3) So? That’s not evidence your situation is common.

  (3b) Good grief – have you already forgotten you reposted the fake Shekar comment about being broke and a house full of unsold product, which is what started this discussion?

  Now, selling stuff instead of returning it is actually the business model, Joecool. *None* of the stuff on ebay is being sold cheaper than what someone in higher rebate brackets can get it. Are you denying Amway will give refunds?

  (4) So your upline was wrong. You claim to be an auditor or related – what did your own calculations show? My calculations of a 4000PV eagle business shows a gross profit of around $800-$1000. Are you sure you didn’t misunderstand your upline? I have an old BWW Quixtar eagle document and it just says “profit”, with the Amway fine print noting it’s gross, so perhaps that’s where the misunderstanding occurred? (and I entirely agree that’s misleading on the part of BWW)

  Only you, not your upline, would know your expenses, so how did they calculate you having net profit? Why didn’t you query this when an Eagle calculation without expenses only shows this kind of gross profit?

  Is it possible you didn’t calculate it out yourself and assumed “profit” meant “net profit”? How experienced was the upline who showed you this?

  In any case, I was referring to your claim that a second job would be more profitable than a platinum business (ie nothing would change).

• Here’s one forum with a bunch of stories. Here’s one. There are tons more on Amquix, my blog and a host of other forums. If Qblog was still viable, there’s a ton more there also:

  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/commen23.htm

  “We recently lost my brother in law to amway. He has left his wife and child because they were to “negative” (she wanted to pay the bills and buy food). He now is living with a woman who is also “living the dream”. He has lost his family, his friends and from what I hear he will shortly lose his job.

  What a great company. If they are so into God and getting ahead what a expense to lose your family your seft-respect and not to mention all your money.”

• The moderator never said that it was a fake comment by a “Shekhar”. He only said he could not confirm that Shekhar was one and the same.

  If Amway has an easy no questions asked refund policy, why in the world would someone try to sell it on the internet? Sorry, your logic doesn’t add up.

  I would have made a profit at 4000 PV if not for the tools. My upline diamond Scott paraded his platinums and bigger pins on stage and asked them what they made. The ruby said $5000 a month. A gold said $2000 a month and a 4000 PV said over $1000 a month. They all made sure to say it was “NET” profit. Now I know that they lied.

  I questioned my sponsor and he told me that I could keep on “pumping the pump” and the money would be there. I did my own calculations and concluded that platinum would also be a net of approximately zero as platinums have addiitional expenses such as the go diamond function, which also requires air travel.

  I’m not saying I was 100% blameless. At first, I trusted my upline and sponsor without question. But when the income was not there, I started to investigate and question them. For that reason, I got out (and for other reasons). I could not believe in the system any longer. I honestly do not know who allegedly went platinum later on because I don’t have any contact with my former IBOs on a regular basis.

• I am now a little upset about Amway, since it is invading my close family members.
  I was eating some fries about 3 days ago, and I was at my mother’s house. She had this new ketchup which I used. Something did not taste quite good when I was eating my fries, but I said nothing, since I thought I would not be using it regularly. Today however, in my mother’s house, I again had some French fries, and since the fast food place did not included ketchup I used the ketchup again, not remembering my previous experience. It’s just that this time, I put a lot, since I like ketchup. This time, however, I had to say something about this ketchup, since to me it did not have a good taste and it was too sweet. I thought that she had gone to the store and purchased very cheap ketchup. Well it turn out that the ketchup was from Amway.

• Joecool,

  (1) you come up with one second-hand story with “from what I hear” that is from 15 years ago in support of your claim there are “thousands” of stories of people losing money? If your claim is true you should, on average, be able to come up with at least 50 reports just from IBOs of the past year.

  (2) So it wasn’t your upline that said you’d make $1000 at 4000PV, it was some crossline on stage. How do you know what their expenses were? How much of it was retail profit?

  (3) On what basis do you believe IBOs “on average” have the high travel expenses of a Hawaiian IBO?

• Explorer,
  If it’s not from Heinz, then don’t bother with any other ketchup :)

  Checking on amway.com I see they have a new ketchup. Perhaps you weren’t the only one who didn’t like the old one!

  (for the record, while they sell ketchup, it’s not made by Amway and it’s not in the range available for profit)

• IBOFB

  1) Would you agree that an IBO on the system spends on average, at least $150 to $250 a month on tools/functions? Add in others costs such as gas, voicemail, website fees. What is the average income of IBOs?

  2) Scott Harimoto was my upline. It was pins from his group that made income claims from stage and emphasized that it was NET profit.

  3) Expenses? Any IBO who doesn’t live near their upline upline diamond will have to travel distance for functions. Your friend Shaun from Expeditions of Truth was flaying to his functions from Canada to the US west coast. Some IBOs migh drive but that is a long journey. Many will just opt to fly.

• (1a) Depends what you mean by “on system”. In N21 if you were on the top-level CD+book program plus went as a couple to all opens and BBS, you’re still under $150. Yes you’d have to amortize WES events, but the majority of people “on system” are not on the top-level program nor having both members of a couple always attending all opens.
  (1b) No idea what the average income of an IBO “on system” is.
  (1c) doesn’t really matter as, as you know, it’s a non-homogenous group so “average” is useless.At the very least you have to account for length of time in the business. A new IBO is clearly not going to be earning as much as someone who has been building for 1,5,10 or 20 years – just like most other businesses.
  (2) I wasn’t in the US, so different PV/BV scale etc, but I was regularly netting $1000 at 4000PV+, so certainly possible.
  (3) My upline Diamond lives 15000km away, I don’t have to travel distance for functions if I want to. Even when I was building my upline Diamond was1000km away. Functions were usually a 15min drive away, sometimes a 45m drive away. Network 21 runs the functions, not the upline Diamond.
  In any case, different IBOs will have different expenses. Even in your setup there was probably IBOs who could walk to a function they were so close. Your expenses were I think unusual.
  Having said that, I had a downline Leaders’ Club quit building the business because of low profitability. In there case it was a high expense problem. The thing is, we lived very close together. We did go to an interstate major function. We, and most of the team, caught a train there and stayed in a camping ground to keep expenses low. This leader’s club couple, who had very good job incomes,flew down, hired a car, and stayed in a top hotel. When they did their bookkeeping, their Amway business was losing money. Others in our downline, with smaller businesses, were making money. Which part of this is Amway’s fault? Or “the system” for that matter?

  It’s worth noting though that while this couple quit building and pursued other business ventures, 13 years later they are still IBOs and still purchasing products almost every month.

• 1) The majority of IBOs are not on the system. But I believe the majority of business building IBOs are on some kind of system. Most of these business building IBOs had expenses. I was in WWDB and they pushed the tools hard. They wanted people to purchase extra function tickets and they always stressed buying extra cds and standing order. I notice you have no comments about our friend Shaun who slips out pieces of information indicating that WWDB is the same today as it was in 1998.

  The length of time an IBO is in has very little relationship with how much they earn.

  2) If you netted $1000 a month at 4000, then clearly you did not buy tools These folks were called “unteachable” and shunned in WWDB.

  3) While the letter of the law would show that functions are “optional”, they are nor presented that way. They are promoted as vital and important to your success. When that comes from guys flashing porsches and yachts, a newbie would be hard pressed to say they didn’t think it was worth it, especially when others are saying the function was life changing. I know not all LOS’s are like WWDB, but they are more alike than not.

  If you have former downline 13 years later still purchasing regularly, that is very very rare.

• (1)sure business builders have expenses. Not necessarily “system” as you know it though. There’s a whole groups of “independents” in Amway US who are not part “systems” and focus primarily on retailing. Read through the lists that were published of accredited groups, there’ll be many there you don’t recognize.

  The problem is that you, and others like FitzTaylor want to compare business builder expenses with income statistics including non-business builders.

  I don’t read Shaun’s blog

  (2) I bought tools. I also sold products, as we were taught and encouraged to do

  (3) In the example I gave, a whole bunch of IBOs went to the function, but expenses were dramatically different due to personal choices. I forgot to mention we brought our own food, they bought take out and went to restaurants.

  (3b) I think every single person who reached “core” in my business, even once,and whom hasn’t moved country is still an IBO and still buying products. Some of those who moved country still are. That includes me. So my upline has downline doing it, and my downline has downline doing it. I’ve heard many speakers, from Dornan down, report similiar experiences. Not exactly “very very rare”.

  Maybe the difference is we educated people about the value of the products and encouraged people to buy what they wanted and needed, and actively discouraged buying products just to get PV to qualify for a pin. N21 teaches that you’re better to miss qualifying for a level then to “buy” your way to it, since the latter isn’t sustainable.

• 1) I know there may be some retail IBOs, but they are not that common and they were basically shunned by WWDB as rogues. My main beef is against the systems such as WWDB and partly with Amway because abuses were not reeled in. Shaun’s blog confirms that a lot of the stuff I was taught in 1990’s is the same stuff taught today, such as Amwayers having a 2% divorce rate.

  2) Our upline told us to buy from our selves. When I asked about the ten customer rule, I was told not to bother with it.

  3) We were told that the only function you should miss is one where you attend a funeral. Your own funeral. People were edified for skipping their brother’s wedding and such.

  4) You ran the business much differently than how we were taught. Our upline actually told the group to go to the new IBO’s home and confiscate non Amway products. People bought to make their 100 PV regardless of need. It is why nobody bought Amway stuff once they stopped building the business. If you taught people to buy what they need, that is good but that is not widespread like you would have us believe.

• (1) Joecool, I worked with an organisation, Network 21, that is the largest of it’s type in the world, that encompasses at least 19 Crowns and Crown Ambassadors, including 10 in North America when you were an IBO

  Your worked with an organisation that had one Crown in North America.

  On what basis can you claim that what you were taught is more common that what I was taught?

  (2) Several years ago Amway put in place very strict reporting requirements for customers in the US. Every single customer has to be registered, and with confirmable addresses that aren’t the same as the IBO (or upline/downline). Without them, you don’t earn bonuses on downline volume.

  (3) Just this week I was listening to an N21mp3 of a Crown Ambassador and he mentioned his wife wasn’t in attendance because she had some commitments with their children. And it wasn’t a funeral. The same CA mentioned how he still has customers.

  Why, in 2012, are you still talking about what your group, a small part of amway, did 13 years ago rather than what the situation is for Amway now?

  Oh, and I have no idea, but how do you know what the WWDB divorce rate is so that you can claim some figure is wrong?

• Is no one else concerned about this persons religion in the original post…. Just because u sell amway doesn’t make u any less of a Christian …that’s like saying girls. That work 40 hrs in a officer r not Christians either cause they r trying to support there single mom family and there kids r in daycare all day.. Everyone has to try to make money.. Amway isn’t a scam.. Just because u don’t like the company doesn’t mean it’s a scam… As far as I’m concerned alllll jobs take u away from your family :/

• 1) WWDB may not be the biggest in the world, but they affacted tens of thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of people. Teaching that many people in functions, unethical and possibly illegal practices would be a problem don’t you think? A good example is Brad Duncan telling downline they can earn hundreds of thousands a month. That’s against Amway rules if I’m not mistaken.

  2) So Amway put strict requirements on customers? So how did that help IBO’s anemic sales to non IBOs?

  3) It’s good that perhaps that one crown puts family first. That wasn’t the case in our groups.

  Divorce rate. Kosage, Danzik, Wolgamott, Miller all divorced. How many WWDB diamonds?

  By the way IBOFB, why do I have to answer this? The WWDB diamonds were the ones saying that WWDB IBOs had a 2% divorce rate. The question should be how they were able to determine this. See how you obfuscate and place the burden of proof on the wrong party?

• Joecool,
  (1) Telling someone, in a private conversation (not “to many people in functions) the truth – that it’s possible to earn hundreds of thousands a month, which it is – is the best example you have of “unethical and possibly illegal practices”?

  That’s neither illegal, unethical, nor against Amway’s rules.

  (2) Amway IBOs who sold products have never had any problem selling products. It’s always been a rule, but easily circumvented by those who chose to do so (like yourself). Now it’s very difficult to circumvent and the result is that groups like yours now significantly promote retailing to customers.

  (3) I’ve heard similar things from my upline CA about spending time with their family. Indeed as the kids grew up the spent 6 weeks every year on holidays and travelling with their kids without even taking a mobile phone or checking email. Kids only time.

  4 divorces does not a statistical sample make, but for arguments sake, if 4 is 2% or less, then WWDB needs more than 200 Diamonds for it to be possible for that group. The Kim group alone had over 400 Diamonds in 2005, so the 4 you mention is somewhere less than 1%.

  Assuming they’re just talking about Diamonds, WWDB would of course keep track of all WWDB Diamonds and know if their marital status changed as it would require contractual changes.

  So you can expect that they would know. I’d expect you wouldn’t know, yet you are making a claim, so the burden of proof is with you.

• 1) So what is implied in functions called “Dream nite”? Why is it common in the US for prospects to think they can retire at the age of 25 or that they can attain mansions and sports cars with a few years of hard work?

  2) So Amway IBO’s already sold few products to non IBOs and now Amway made it harder on customers and I’m to believe IBOs are selling more Amway products? uh huh. Right.

  3) Your experience is the complete opposite of mine. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

  4) The person making that claim was Brad Wolgamott. How’s his marriage? Look, I doubt that IBOs have any different of a divorce rate than the rest of the world, btu it was WWDB leaders who said that Amway and WWDB saves marriages. The fact is they made it up. They don’t know who is getting divorced and what the reason is. For all you know, some people may have gotten divorced because of Amway or WWDB. This is just something they probably made up and I don’t see why you are even defending their claim.

  I’m not making any claim. Shaun, the WWDB posted it on his blog. Your friend Bridgett even told him he should not post it because it’s “POOTA” – pulled out of the air.

• (1) N21 doesn’t have functions called “dream nite”, but not quite sure what the question is about? I know personally people whom I knew as children, started Amway at 18, and retired from their job before they were 25. Now, depends how you define “few” but I also have seen people I know personally buy mansions and sports cars thanks to their Amway businesses.

  If you bothered to spend some time reading up into the academic research in to “success”, rather than so much time on your blogs ranting against Amway, you’d discover that dreams, goal setting, and indeed hanging around other people are conducive to success. Read up for example on goal contagion and willpower.

  (2)I don’t understand what you’re saying, but there are 2 things going on. Previously you didn’t have to register customer sales with Amway. You still don’t, but you need a minimum amount in order to qualify for various bonuses,and Amway has also developed numerous tools to help track them, so it makes sense to register them. Second is that since Amway cracked down on the customer rule, plus given upline incentives to help downline get customers, more people are now actively getting customers.

  All of which I think has contributed to the great growth Amway North America is having in the last few years

  (3) What’s to disagree? We had different experiences. We were with different groups. I never said your experience wasn’t true.

  (4) You made the claim the divorce rate was wrong. As I pointed out, WWDB *would* have a reasonable idea what the higher pin divorce rate is, so there’s every reason to believe the figure may be correct. The only evidence you’ve given to support the idea it is wrong actually did the opposite.

• 1) So network 21 doesn’t have a dream night, but WWDB does. I believe that this function is a waste of time and gives IBOs an unrealistic expectation for their Amway business. This is part of how IBOs can lose a lot of money as many people end up having to travel by air to see (possibly fake) pictures of diamond’s mansions and sports cars.

  2) Okay, it’s good but I don’t see how cracking down on registering customers is conducive to more sales.

  4) I believe the 2% divorce rate for Amway and WWDB IBOs is completely fabricated. Also, it seems hypocritical that Wolgamott was the one who said it.

• IBOFB, btw, these nice folks who spoke about the 2% divorce rate also said WWDB was a non profit company and that “nobody” made a cent on the sale of tools.

• IBOFB,

  Those crickets are deafening.

• I am petitioning the IFA (International Franchise Association) to hold their franchisor members responsible for acts of fraud, threatening, stealing,lying and creating false documents to terminate their franchisees from their agreements.

  Although our franchises may be different most are members of the IFA and the IFA is stealing our rights to due process by helping these franchisors word their contracts in a way that when we sign up to start also forfeits our rights to due process should THEY commit CRIMINAL acts against our franchise.

  Please go to the link below and sign my petition. Then download it and post it to your web site so others will know and can sign as well.

  http://www.change.org/petitions/veterans-deserve-success-not-matco-tools-franchise-failure?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition&utm_term=friends_wall

  Thank You!

  Todd A. Peterson

• Damn this is a lot of hot wind lol

• Joecool,

  (1) So it’s your opinion that WWDB has fabricated the divorce rate – even though they would actually be able to calculate it

  (2) So it’s your opinion that paying IBOs more to retail products to customers, and punishing them for not doing so, would not be conducive to more sales

  (3) So it’s your opinion that functions like “dream night” are a waste of time, despite independent academics reporting that such events increase the likelihood you will achieve your goals

  You’re entitled to your opinions. Doesn’t make them factual.

  (4) re “tool profit”, you’re making hearsay claims about something somebody said well over a decade ago?

• re (4) googling around it seems Larsen even had someone who works for WWDB tell him that. It seems to me some folk are mistakenly taking the idea that reinvesting profits back in to a business makes it a non-profit. It doesn’t. no-profit maybe :)

  either way, got any recent reports of this?

• 1) Do you really believe the WWDB leaders know the divorce rate of their groups of thousands? Do you believe they know or don’t know if Amway and WWDB was the cause of their divorce? Do you honestly believe that WWDB has a divorce rate of 2% while the rest of the world is at 60%? Kosage, Danzik and Wolgamott divorced. Since there aren’t 100 WWDB diamonds, that percentage already looks questionable doesn’t it/

  2) Making things more difficult for customers is not conducive for sales.

  3) How many new diamonds in the US have emerged from WWDB as opposed to diamonds who left WWDB? (Kosage, Wolgamott)

• (1) I thought the percentage was referring to Diamonds. You claim “there aren’t 100 WWDB diamonds”, yet I have already pointed out there’s over 400 just in the Kim group, so 3 divorces is way under 2%, there’s probably some more!

  (2) No, it’s not. So what’s your point, given they’ve made things easier for customers?

  (3) No idea. Your blog, and this page, are ostensibly about Amway, not WWDB, which is just one small part of Amway.

• 1) I am referring to the US. That 2% divorce rate is made up. Do you honestly believe that WWDB kept tabs on who got divorced? Why would they care or why would they keep such a statistic? More likely it was something along the lines the (US) diamonds used about Amway being a “God pleasing business”. The truth is that the WWDB leaders made it up, just like they swore nobody made a profit from the tools and that WWDB was a non profit organization. These two points you conveniently ignored. What would lead anyone to believe that WWDBer’s have a lower divorce rate than the rest of the world? I even read an article (sorry, no source) saying that churchgoers have the same divorce rate as the rest of the world. yet you believe that someone in WWDB has a 2% divorce rate? Uh huh.

  2. They made it easier to order online, but so did Amazon and all kinds of other online businesses that charge much less than Amway.

  3. I believe the US has basically saturated for Amway. This is why much of Amway’s growth is coming from foreign countries. And I don’t believe this is exclusive to Amway. The difference though, is the criticism of companies. Walmart often forces out mom and pop stores. McDonald’s coffee is too hot. But Amway is often associated with scam and pyramid. Your continued defense of WWDB isn’t helping their cause either.

• Here’s what Scott Larsen wrote about WWDB and non profit:

  http://www.amquix.info/amway_wwdb.html

• IBOFB, this is close to what I heard as an IBO and it is still being said now. I call BS on this claim:

  http://expeditionoftruths.com/2010/03/22/calgary-regional-rally-reflections/

  “By the way, the divorce rate in the normal job world is over 60%, the divorce rate in our line of business is about 2%. Hmm what would you rather hang around if you had the opportunity?”

  And your friend Bridgett’s response:

  Bridgett on March 23, 2010 at 4:29 pm said:
  I’m not a fan of POOTA stats. 60%, 2%, I don’t know where people get these numbers. And they are unverifiable. ( POOTA = Plucked Out Of Thin Air)

  However, I agree that being a part of WWDB has given my husband and me the tools, the environment, the examples, in order to have a great marriage.

  The emphasis alone (to have a good marriage) is truly astonishing (in a good way), considering that my experience in other arenas has been the exact opposite.

  However, just with anything, it’s up to the person (and couple) to implement and use everything that’s given to them.

  Some marriages, even in WWDB, don’t always last, for various reasons. I am acutely aware that there are “other forces” at work to divide and conquer, particularly in marriages, and particularly in marriages that have great impact on many people.

  All that to say: We are all suseptable to give such “force” a foothold, and we need to be ON GUARD, and lifting each other up in prayer, since we are in a battle (and not of flesh and blood).

• (1) Shaun’s site refers to WWDB, not just WWDB in the US. You are arbitrarily changing the goal posts again. You swap between talking about Diamonds and then talking about “all” of WWDB (however that is defined) and now you’re changing from talking about all of WWDB to just talking about WWDB in the US. I have no idea if the 2% figure is made up or not. I do know that WWDB *would* have the data to know the divorce rate of WWDB Diamonds if they wanted to calculate it. Indeed they’d probably have it for all WWDB platinums and above, since I believe they have contracts with all of them.

  You don’t know whether it’s real or made up, and neither does Bridgett. You”re *definitely* just guessing.

  Either way, it’s a pretty minor thing. If that’s the kind of minor thing you’re complaining about these days, then Amway is in pretty good stead.

  (2) five posts back you said Amway was making it harder for customers, now you’re saying they’re making it easier. Make up your mind.

  (3) you’ve been claiming “you believe” Amway US is saturated for years. How do you reconcile that belief with 28 consecutive months of growth for Amway North America? How do you reconcile that belief with, for the first 3 months of this year for Amway North America, a 7% increase in recruiting, a 12% increase in volume (PV), and a 26% increase in new Fast Track bonuses?

  (4) I already pointed out what larsen’s *decade old* page said.

  Got anything that’s not simply unsupported opinion or just plain old false?

• So a WWDB diamond, say Greg Duncan for example, cites a 2% divorce rate for WWDBers. How would he know Korean divorce rates for WWDBers? It is more likely that WWDB speakers made it up than they know it to be a fact. You defending this is starting to make you look like a foaming at the mouth Amway/WWDB apologist . And you don’t find it hypocritical of the likes of Wolgamott to divorce after being one of those claiming that Amway/WWDB saves marriages?

  I believe Amway is saturated in North America. So is McDonald’s. That’s why more expansion is happening overseas. Now I don’t mean literal saturation where everyone has signed up. I mean that growth (I ackowledge growth) is SLOWER than in other countries because Amway is 50+ years old in the US and you cannot deny that the reputation has been tarnished. Partly because of past IBO (stupid) behavior, such as making up fake divorce rates.

• (1) Greg Duncan is a director or on the board of WWDB isn’t he? Why wouldn’t he have access to information on WWDB Diamonds (including those in Korea) who have contracts with WWDB?

  As I said, I have no idea whether it’s made up or not, but I’m pretty sure they’d be able to at least come up with a reasonable approximation if they wanted to go to the trouble.

  You on the other hand seem to have some magical way of *knowing* it’s made up that you haven’t been able to explain.

  As for Wolgamott, it might be hypocritical if he did it the other way around, but even then that wouldn’t make it wrong. Even 2% means some marriages aren’t “saved”

  Either way I think (a) it’s not necessarily a sensible thing to be promoting in the context of a business (b) it’s even sillier for you to be making such a big deal out of it

  (2) You’re apparently using a different definition of the word “saturation” than normal. If you’re going to redefine words from their normal use in the future, please note it at the time. It wastes a lot of time if I’m replying to comments you make believing your using words the way everyone else does, when in fact you’ve made up a whole new meaning. It’s also very misleading for the casual reader.

• And by the way, Shaun’s glorified leaders are the same ones I heard. Who knows, maybe they make up stuff, depending on who they are speaking to. If you honestly believe that Amway/WWDBers have a 2% divorce rate, what are they doing to make a variance that significant?

  It can’t be IBO earnings. More likely it is BS made up by the US WWDB diamonds who also teach Shaun’s group in Canada.

• (1) which part of ” I have no idea whether it’s made up or not” are you not understanding?

  (2) I spent 5 years studying psychology and sociology at undergraduate and graduate level. I learned more about people, relationships and interpersonal skills in my 2 years on the N21 book program than I did in the 5 years at University. That knowledge (and skills) have helped my relationships (including other business relationships) enormously. It would seem to me to be perfectly reasonable to conclude that knowledge and those skills might help save marriages, don’t you think?