IS AMWAY A SCAM?

1,020 thoughts on “IS AMWAY A SCAM?”

• Greg Duncan? The financial guru who said people who take out loans are stupid, only to find out he had loans, bankruptcy, credit card debt. You really want to use him as a credible source of information? IBOFB, you’re in a sinkhole and your baseless defense of this divorce rate is making you look silly. How would WWDB have information about who got divorced in their groups? When someone divorced, they reported it to Greg Duncan? You’re being ludicrous pressing this issue.

  The wide variance in what they are claiming is what makes it a very dubious claim. Someone like yourself who claims to have done statistical work should know this. This is a significant variance from the rest of the world. Why would this group be different?

  As it stands, nobody would care about the divorce rate or Duncan’s fiscal woes, but it was used as en example of why people should stay in Amway WWDB and that Duncan’s financial acumen is why people should take his business advice. But now they have egg on their face.

  Why do you take credence from the same folks who lied about not making any profit from tools?

• (1) you raised Greg Duncan, not me. But yes, a director of a company should generally be considered a credible source of information about that company.

  (2) no, it’s your obsession with this that’s making *you* look foolish

  (3) if I have a contract with Joan & John Smith, and they get divorced and John marries Jill, then that contract needs to be redone based on whatever agreement they (and I) come up with. In it’s simplest form I’d have new contract with Jill & John Smith. You on the other hand, would have us believe that a company that is in the habit of hiring couples to talk at seminars would have no clue at all that the couple divorced. You on the other hand, would have us believe that a company that is in the habit of posting pictures and “stories” about business couples affiliated with them on their website would have no clue at all that the couple divorced. You on the other hand, would have us believe that a company that regularly invites couples to private conferences would have no clue at all that the couple divorced.

  (4) I already told you why they might be different – not to mention that financial stresses are a major influence on divorce, and most couples who reach Diamond (no matter whether you believe the income is from Amway or tools/speaking etc) would have less financial stress than most.

  (5) Past experience has shown you get Greg Duncan and Brad Duncan confused occasionally. So do I. I’m not convinced (and you’ve provided no evidence to support your claim) that Greg Duncan said the things you claim he said. I’m also not convinced his chapter 11 filing wasn’t a strategic thing rather than a financial trouble thing per se (though the Amway loan request tends to provide evidence to the latter). Either way, yup, egg on their face.

  That’s one of several thousands Diamonds. Anyone claim any of them were perfect beings, let alone all of them?

  So far you’ve spent all this time complaining about a may or may not be true divorce rate claim (whoopdeedoo), and now you’ve brought up a guy who got in to cash flow problems, but whose filings show is indeed extremely wealthy from his involvement in Amway.

  You’re truly running out of steam aren’t you?

• Why are these folks talking about an unverified divorce rate in a BUSINESS meeting in the first place?

  To the readers of this blog: What is more likely? That the divorce rate is taught because it helps you to sell Amway products – or because it gives you a reason to stay in the business so you can continue to buy tickets and attend functions so you can learn more unverified pieces of useless information?

  I know very well the difference between Brad and Greg Duncan. Can you cite where I have mistaken them? And Greg’s bankruptcy was changed from chapter 11 to chapter 7. Big difference. Extremely wealthy but can’t pay his taxes and credit card bills? And we should listen to him because of his financial acumen?

  Sure, I cannot prove what I heard from Duncan as an IBO. but blogs like Shaun’s indicates they are teaching the same stuff now that they taught when I was an IBO many years ago.

  All that aside, you have yet to make a compelling case as to why Amway is a good opportunity, being that by your admission, “most” do nothing and quit and out of the remaining, most do not make a net profit.

• On this very blog:

  DoAsISay on January 8th, 2012 9:31 pm

  We are currently separated and in the process of filing for a dissolution. I never thought Amway could destroy a marriage like that, but I’ve read so many sad stories where has done just that. Like I said, I’m sure my story isn’t a unique one, but I just wanted to share in hopes that I can TRULY HELP people steer clear of this plague. Not only will it empty your bank account, waste time you could be living your life and enjoying the company of family and true friends, it will destroy your relationships with the ones you love. These people that were in our business call themselves Christians, yet they can easily let a marriage be destroyed and not even flinch. Greed and lies are all I see in these people!

  ***To strengthen my point, I’ve seen and personally experienced Amway/WWDB leaders encourage a breakup in a marriage or relationship because one partner was not sold out on Amway. Maybe Amway/WWDB causes divorces?

• (1) no idea why they’re talking about it. Context matters, can you provide it? If you’re talking about say, the importance of developing people (incl. relationship skills), which are very important in this type of business, then mentioning as an aside additional benefits is certainly reasonable.

  (2) chapter 7 doesn’t necessarily mean he *can’t* pay his bills, it may mean he chooses not to for whatever reason. Indeed the court documents reveal he had $8.5 million in debts and over $63 million in assets, so clearly he *could* pay the debts if he chose.

  (3) You apparently picked Greg Duncan as your “say …. Greg Duncan” example just so you could introduce this area of discussion. What you’ve done is provide an example of someone developing **$63 million** of assets as a result of being an IBO. That would seem to be some compelling evidence Amway can be a good business to get involved in, no?

• 1) I can’t speak for Shaun, but in my context, the WWDB diamonds were talking about Amway being a “God pleasing” business. Then they added about how Amway makes you nicer and can save marriages.

  2) His 63 million was self declared and obviously not liquid assets. While he made a good income (500K from Amway and 500K from tools), I was surprised to see a triple diamond making only 500K. That sure isn’t the kind of money to buy mansions and jets in cash.

  3) I’ve never held the position that nobody makes money. How much income is Duncan’s tens of thousands of downline making? At 4000 I broke even after expenses. Pretty much anyone below that level with similar expenses lost their shirts.

• (1) As you already know, Amway put in rules about religious proselytizing years ago. Yet you keep on babbling about it. Check your calendar, it’s 2012, not 1999.

  (2) You don’t buy a jet, or a mansion, on a years income. Someone earning $500K a year could, after some time, develop assets of say …. $63 million, which even liquidating just a fraction of would be more than enough to buy a mansion or a jet.

  You’re seriously trying use someone with assets in the range of $63 million and at least $500K in Amway income alone as an example of Amway being a bad business?

  How does it compare to your asset base, Joecool?

  (3) And at 1200PV I was making money after expenses. Not my fault (or anyone else’s for that matter) that you (a) couldn’t control your expenses (b) relied solely on bonuses and commissions from wholesale (downline) sales for income, when at the early stages retail sales profit can easily outstrip that income (c) stopped building after less than a year, when by your own admission your leadership teaches it takes longer than that to develop a decent business.

• 1) You asked me under what context the divorce rate was brought up. The context was Amway being a God pleasing business. So what about accreditation? Didn’t you post an article about an AMO bringing on a political speaker on the same day they were getting accredited?

  2) IBOFB – you don’t get it. Duncan said all his homes and cars were paid for in cash. Answer me this? How do you get foreclosed on homes if they’re paid off in cash? The answer is Greg Duncan LIED. Get it now? That 63 million is self declared no?

  I never said 500K was a bad thing. I said how many of his business building downline are making a net profit. What’s that answer? A fraction of 1%? The rest are losing money due to tool purchases.

  3) I did what my upline advised. I was a good soldier. Stop blaming the victims.

• I left Amway for several reasons. One of them was because each time I reached a new level, the profit I expected was not there, even though I had the parameters that my upline advised me to have. I came to the conclusion that I would still not have made a profit even at the platinum level so the decision to leave was an easy, especially when upline was advising me to leave (divorce) my now wife because they thought I could build the business faster without her.

  These are the kinds of people you have dedicated yourself to defend? That says a lot.

• (1) yup, and that was some years back now and they’ve since implemented even stricter accreditation processes

  (2) you’ve failed to provide any evidence that Duncan said he paid for all his homes and cars in cash. Self-assessed valuation, yes, but you don’t BS too much to a bankruptcy court. How are “the rest” of his downline losing money due to tool purchases when most of them don’t buy tools?

  (3) Whose business was it, yours or your upline?

  (4a) You can work out the profit *beforehand*. You can do it as a new IBO, albeit with estimates for expenses. After you’ve been in a while you’ll have a handle on that. No bonus should ever be a surprise.

  (4b) Is this the wife you were cheating on with illegal prostitutes, then made up stories about IBOs threatening you to try to get sympathy? Just sayin’ … glass houses and stones and all ….

• Guys, take it down a notch. The both of you guys are acting like you are cray or something or you do not have anything to do. I am about to join amway. I do care if it is a scam. So far, friends that have joined at the college I go to make money on bonuses and income. It is strange though amway sell their products at a high price while telling customers that they would get discounts on the products. I do not understand yet, but I am learning. My advice to you both is to stop haggling like the old men you are, and put this issue to rest.

• I like you, JoeCool. I like your comments even better.

• After attending the business meetings, I have found out that despite amway’s successes they are still very much remote when it comes to selling products. The website saddens me with it remoteness. It looks so dead. One can only see the line of products, but never the product themselves until you register as a customer. I like to go on best buy and amazon all the time. Shopping online is great. Shopping with Amway is not so great. When I become an IOB, those are some tools I would like to use.

• 1) It’s not been the strictness of rules that is the problem. It has been the lack of enforcement.

  2) I sat in functions where Mr. Duncan said it was stupid to take out loans and that he pays cash for everything. Your WWDB blogger Shaun, who is in the Duncan group, speaks about buying his home in cash. I believe the cash teaching still exists. Not that cash is bad, but Duncan lied.

  3) My business but as a newbie, you are told to trust the established leaders, which I did.

  4b) It wasn’t a story of a threat. I later tracked the email to a site in Ontario Canada and that same person/IBO left other threats directly on my blog.

• Another amwayer spreading a lie about the divorce rate in Amway:

  http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=001106;p=1

  “quote:
  The divorce rate in America is 50% and in Amway it is 1%”

  “quote:
  Amway has a 1% divorce rate, compared to the 50% rate in the rest of the country. Forget about the money, obviously it’s great for holding families together.”
  quote:

• It looks like Amway might cause divorces:

  http://www.amquix.info/amway_marriages.html

• I was doing some research on Amway as I was invited to see the business presentation. It was made to sound easy and a shortcut to riches but somehow I think the presentation was a lot of fluff. Looking at numbers, I just don’t see how people can really succeed in Amway.

  IBOFB, you and the JoeCool character should have a wrestling match. You guys remind me of two high school rivals who have to go “one up” on each other. But frankly, the point about him being with prostitutes is a low blow and uncalled for, unless you yourself are without sin. Have you ever lied, made mistakes or even gotten divorced or had conflicts with family members? You know the saying about not throwing stones if you live in a glass house?

• I did the Amway gig for a while, but I realized that I had changed everything about ME over a span of a couple years. That was something that made me feel wrong. I never targeted my friends or family, but just being in the upsell mood while out and about, pushed them away. I value real feelings, over 20-200 bux a month, of extra income. I made a few extra bucks that I couldnt have made without Amway, but I also could have applied for a poart-time job, and made more(american dollars, tangible greenbacks) at minimum wage, with less time, energy, and initial investment involved.

  I totally understand the investment properties of the Amway model, but it comes at a price. That price is different for everyone, and I didnt feel right doing what I was taught to do for the continuance of my buisness. I have been, and will continue to be an independent business owner, but I will do it without an attached entity. Plus, I own a business that I actually love to operate.

  My extra cirricular income comes from trading stock options. Amway is childsplay once you start trading a little bit. It takes less effort, less initial investment, and yeilds better results, in less time. Of course you can lose your ass, your home, everything, but complete mental remediation would be the cause. Quite literally. Considering you get to choose how much you ionvest and all…

  Invest in a real scheme… The volatility of the stock market.

  I have a 14% weekly return avg. over the last 7 years… I do not need to post numbers, or proof, but I also, dont need to have a custom steel fabrication shop to live. I dont care to retire from that yet, because Im young. Very. And I believe in doing what feels good. My neat little custom car fab shop, does. Amway does not. Its as simple as that. People are going to do, and say what feels right. And this unabashed plugging for any entity is futile. The general public views it as arrogant, and mindless. Sorry that goes against what some think, but look around. Ask around, and Im talkin the guy pumpin your gas, or washin your window, not Ampals…

  I was approached in a coffee shop a few weeks back. Very obviously an IBO of some sort… I was asked,
  “Where I would like to be in 5 years.”

  I told him exactly where I will be in 5 years, and he replied.

  “Wow, you seem to know where you want to go in life, son!” How would you like to meet with some of my associates, and talk business opportunities.”

  I simply told him, “No thanks. That is where I’m at right now, and I dont want anything to change in 5 years…”

  He immediately asked, “how?”

  I didnt say anything. Just walked out.

  I now see his website listed on his card, is removed. A little investigation, and this gentleman is no longer an Amway IBO. This, worries me. Such great confidence, and then, literal weeks later, this same gentleman, half my age, and twice my business expereince, has his house listed with the same real estate agent I am using to look for a second home.

  Point being… Most folks have dismal success rate attempting to run an “IBO” under the Amway umbrella… Another side note here… True, IBO’s are supposed to make millions by themselves.(Being “technically” independent, doesnt mean a thing to real business owners, when you operate within the Amway web, sorry.) Amway ranked at #2 “milionairre maker”, behind Microsoft is a lame factoid. It all about “percentages.” What percentage of all of the Amway sheltered company IBO’s are millionaires… Not so great when you look at Microsofts %, or even Virgin’s %…

  A message to those that know, or have already failed with these types of proograms…If you are serious about the betterment of your life, and want extra income, do something else. There are better ways to make way more money.

  Im not trashing anyone, or any particular entity, but the way “business” is conducted within the Amway circle, is not normal when presented to the general public. Everyone can agree, that purchasing product from yourself, and then getting a small reward is totally sweet, but theres a lot more to that initial pitch than meets the eye. If there were more Amway IBO’s that werent so… like the typical pitch man, it would certainly change the image. But since there has been this upsell, “down-teach” theory, Amway’s overall image will remain the same Im afraid. Too bad, because, it really has a ton of potential to do more. More than it already enjoys, far more. If you cant see that… Well, thats just a matter of fact. No loss to them, or you, or me for that matter. But they are seriously hindering their ability to grow on a national level by the way they are viewed by the “general population” and theres no getting around that.

• You have to believe your own two eyes, your experience and logic.

  It seems that ibofbck is trying to convince people that not too many people are really involved in the tool system. But when I look around, in the amway that I know, the majority of ibos attend meeting/ listen to CDs. This reality is the same reality being seen by the majority of the people sharing their experience about amway in this blog—even Amway defenders who have posted here (such as shekr, and Reveding) in-advertently confirm this reality by having openly admitted and defended the regular use of tools/meetings. I suspect that those statistics which say that the majority of IBOs are not using tools or attend meeting, and which are used by ibofbk, are for the most part fabricated or bias.

• Explorer, ones “own two eyes and experience” are notoriously bad at judging the truth of large scale systems.

  If I walk around for the next 24hrs, nearly everyone speaks Swedish. Should I assume the whole world speaks Swedish?

  If you go to a gym and see fit & healthy people training, should you assume everyone who has gym memberships are fit & healthy?

  No, you have biased samples.

  People who are actively building an Amway business (and no, not Amway’s definition of “active”) are more likely to be using tools, and also more likely to be the ones you encounter and know are IBOs.

  I couldn’t tell you when the last time I bought “tools” was, or went to a seminar, but it was quite a long time ago. Funny how you don’t include me in your little sample of “proof”.

• The Amway that is relevant to me is the Amway that I see, because that is the only Amway in which I have been solicited to join. It is the same Amway being confirmed here By the MAJORITY of people commenting here; and the internet is open to the whole world.
  If you believe that your own two eyes are “notoriously bad at judging the truth” why do you believe them when you are reading and judging your statistics; why do the people formulating the data believe them when gathering that data?

• These Amway people are so heartbreaking to listen to. It’s like listening to a completely deluded dementia patient. Every word out of IBOs mouth just sounds awfully crooked and the veracity of the depraved words that Shankar used to post here make me cringe with pity. Pathetic. Deranged. Real success is derived from hard work not by invcement in pyramid schemes. A wealthy man who’s success was built on the back of his skill and intelligence wouldn’t look to retire at 25 or buy his products cheap or listen to psychotic CDs.

• Explorer, you haven’t studied much science or statistics have you?

  Do you really think a website where people go to complain about things gives a balanced view?

  Go to http://www.amwaytalk.com and you’ll find the vast majority have positive experiences.

  Or check out research, such as the University of Westminster did on global attitudes to direct selling and you’ll find the majority of people with actual experience with companies like Amway have positive views. Those without actual experience, who get their views from sites like this, have negative views.

  I entirely agree though that one’s perceptions are important, and this is a big weakness of the network marketing model – it’s based around person to person communication, and more often than not people promote bad experiences far more than good ones.

  Direct sales companies, including Amway, are responsible for what their agents do. They can’t hide behind the word “independent”, because no matter it’s “truth” (or not), the perception isn’t the same. Amway has finally taken a far more proactive role in training and monitoring the field, and internet “complaints” are virtually disappeared. It’s nearly all (though not entirely) stories that are years, even decades old.

  The Amway I saw and experienced is way different to the one you’re talking about. That doesn’t make either one of us liars. Amway is huge. Way, way, way bigger than you think. You can sit in a stadium of 10000 people and have a certain experience, and you’re not even getting a plurality of IBO experience, let alone a majority.

• You might have studied a lot of science, but in the process, did you lose the ability to recognize what the topic is about? I never said you could not find people saying that Amway is positive—the majority of IBOs I have spoken to say positive things about Amway. If you re-read my original post, you will find that I am talking about the use of tools being wide spread rather than it being only the minority.
  As for the Away talk website, do you really think that site is unbiased towards Amway? Or is it like your website, which is design to support Amway? By the way, you never published that comment I made in your site about CSPI vs. Amway did you? Was it too negative for your website? In this website, I have never had a problem with my comments not being publish.

• According to the most recent data only 46% of IBOs are considered “active” by Amway’s definition. That’s a minority. You think the majority of people who join Amway are buying tools when the majority don’t even make that incredibly broad definition of “active”?

  Do you have any evidence at all to support this assertion that people who join Amway utterly violate the normal rules of human behaviour, such as the 80:20 rule?

  Do you have any evidence at all to support the conclusion of this assertion, that the BSM companies are lying too their organizations with their statistics about how many people buy tools – a lie that would be disproved as soon as you have a group?

  Why on earth would you expect tool buying to be widespread when there is zero evidence to support this idea, and plenty of evidence against it?

  I’m not aware of a CSPI vs Amway comment from you that went unpublished. Only things that go unpublished are spammers, which includes Amway IBOs prospecting, and comments from obviously false email addresses. I usually email them to confirm before deleting those.

  So sorry I don’t know what comment you are referring to. I did a search for CSPI through all comments, including unpublished ones, and nothing showed up except for the comments on the article about it. No comments from anyone called “explorer” either, except for a Greg who used the moniker and was an IBO.

• This website publish my comments even when I make it clear in my email that it is a fake email. I did also made it clear in my comment on your website about my email being fake. Why would I want to give you my email? Do you also want to find out who I am to try to dig into my personal life? As if I don’t know how you have use personal information that has nothing to do with Amway against joecool.

  Regarding the rest of your comments, re-read my second response about the Amway that is truely relevant to me and the majority of people here.

  Additionally, re-search the sugar substitute equal, containing spartame, and see how the FDA approved that poison through bogus scientific studies commissioned or paid for by—you guessed it–the company making the product.

  I have been in the business world, and I know how companies can go around regulations. There is a rule known in business, and it is distortion of what is known as the golden rule—in business, it mean whom ever has the gold, makes the rule.

• So make an anonymous email account on gmail or hotmail. It’s not hard. The policy is just to deter drive-by comments and add one more step for people trying to post multiple comments pretending to be different people.

  As for joecool, that information was “discovered” because he himself raised the issue on his blog and lied about it.

  I know a lot about aspartame, read virtually every study on it (I’ve got an unhealthy addiction to diet cola), there’s been numerous independent studies on it, not just the corporate funded ones. I’m not sure what you point is?

  Can you summarise your “second response”. Wayyyy too many comments on here to go back searching for it.

• The fact that only 46% of IBOs being active should indicate a problem in itself. Out of those active, the majority of business building IBOs are on some kind of a system. The vast majority of those on the system lose money – because of the system. IBOFb has never been able to produce any actual evidence that Amway works, save for the people who sell the tools.

• Ibofback, the comment I was refering to is this one:
  The Amway that is relevant to me is the Amway that I see, because that is the only Amway in which I have been solicited to join. It is the same Amway being confirmed here By the MAJORITY of people commenting here; and the internet is open to the whole world.
  If you believe that your own two eyes are “notoriously bad at judging the truth” why do you believe them when you are reading and judging your statistics; why do the people formulating the data believe them when gathering that data?

  As for you not getting the point…The reason why I cited the company that makes equal is to give you one example where companies can pay for bogus scientific studies. When company “A” has the money and company “B” needs the business, there is room for secrete manipulation. There are more example of false scientific studies, you can also research Monsanto. I am not saying that Amway is for sure doing the same, but I don’t think that Amway is a “saint” either; specially when what I see is the opposite of what you are trying to convince everyone here–namely, that only a minority of people are using tools/meetings.

• Explorer, IBOFB is like Amway. He thinks the IBOs who are not active don’t count.

  The fact that many do nothing is a problem in itself.

  I suppose if you count the entire IBO population, the ones attending conventions and buying tools would be less than 50% of all IBOs, but still, it is very common for IBOs to gather for meetings and conventions where there might be tens of thousands of IBOs, depending on the function. You also need to factor in the fact that there are multiple conventions at times and they are happening all over the US and Canada, and other countries.

  Most of these IBOs are losing money because of the expense of tools and conventions and they are a significant number, despite what IBOFB claims.

• explorer,
  sorry but I still don’t get the point you’re trying to make? I already agreed with your first point, that people’s own experiences are what matters most to them, even if it’s not accurate for the whole

  Your second point about scientific studies I don’t see the relevance to the conversation? No scientific studies funded by Amway have been mentioned. Or are you implying they lie in the very (government mandated) statistics they report which you claim are unflattering, and which I claim are useless and misleading.

  What would be the point of that?

• Joecool and Ibofbk
  Maybe it is true that the majority of IBOs don’t use tools/meeting in Amway, and it just happens that the IBOs that I know, simply represent the minority that do use tools/meeting. But because of what I have seen so far, I made the comment in which I said that I suspected those statistics to be fabricated or bias, but I never made the claim that I knew or know for sure that those statistics are actually fabricated or bias–I don’t know that, and I never claimed to know that; just like I also don’t know, and have not made the claim, about whether those tools are useful or not, or if whether those tools are actually good or bad for the IBOs.

• The discussion on whether IBOs use tools depends. Amway disregards IBOs who :”do nothing” from their average income stats. If you use that same logic, then I believe it is not a small minority of IBOs who use tools.

  Also, as I said, functions take place all across the US and Canada, and in venues where there might be tens of thousands in attendance.

  And I might add that there is no evidence to suggest that tools have any correlation with people succeeding in Amway. Conversely, I think you could make a stronger case that the tools are the reason for so many Amway businesses than end in a net loss.

• I’ve earned a bonus in the past year, so I’m “active” as far as Amway’s statistics are concerned. I’ve bought no “tools”, attended no seminars, shown no plans, made no attempts to make money.

  Yet you assume I’m spending hundreds of dollars a month on tools. You have zero evidence to support that assertion.

  Seminars with “tens of thousands” in attendance are rare in North America. I’m not sure if they occur at all anymore. In the past when they did it was Yager group and their seminars included many IBOs from outside North America. These days those groups have their own seminars in their own countries.

  There is evidence that tool use correlate with success. Where is the evidence that “so many Amway businesses than (sic) end in a net loss”?

• “There is evidence that tool use correlate with success. Where is the evidence that “so many Amway businesses than (sic) end in a net loss”?”

  Yes, but when the tool success is a fraction of 1%, that’s not very convincing.

  The evidence is basic math. Amway’s own numbers suggest that about 1 in 200+ IBOs reach platinum. We also know, based on Bruce Craig’s study, that platinums on the system break even or lose money unless they have exceptional sales. Any downline IBOs under one of these platinums will also lose money, unless they have exceptional sales.

• Plenty of people are “successful” long before platinum. Who died and made you the king, such that you get to determine other peoples goals and whether they are “successful” or not?

  Seriously though, a study from 1979 is the best you’ve got? A study from one state in one country where Amway operates. A study of directs, not platinums.

  *That’s* your evidence?

  I suppose it’s a little better than claiming some guy may have said Amway helps save marriages and it may or may not be true but you think it isn’t.

  What terrible indictments of Amway you are sharing …. :-/

• Feel free to provide evidence to support your position. I’ll be waiting here with the crickets. At least I provided evidence. I might add that 60 minutes and then Dateline more recently and the UK investigation also support my claims.

  You stating that Amway is great doesn’t hold much water. :)

• Neither 60 minutes nor Dateline support your claims. And what did Mike Wallace, who was the 60 minutes reporter, to say after his investigation –

  Wallace had nothing but kind words for Amway upon his return, saying that he’d started out his investigative piece with “preconceived misconceptions” that he later discovered to be in error.

  “Look, they’re not criminals,” he said. “We found their products are good and they’re not a pyramid operation.

  The UK investigation also did not support your claims, indeed the exact opposite. It showed that very few people were actively building the business, most were just shoppers – precisely as I claimed.

  It’s incredibly how you cherry pick information. You claim the make more from tools, yet the very 60 minutes investigation you cite now had Yager stating he made more from Amway – and you just pretend it was never said!

  You just make stuff up.

  I’ve already provided links to info supporting “my position”. No point doing it again since you don’t care what sources say anyway. Heck, you don’t even care what sources you use say!

• Was Mike Wallace talking about Amway or the tool companies? Do you know there’s a difference? You like to pick either side, whichever is more favorable for your position.

• He was talking about Amway and Amway IBOs, including those he met who own tool companies, like Dexter Yager.

  If you’re talking about tool companies, then you are the one who needs to be more specific, not me. This thread is about Amway. There are something like 20+ approved tool suppliers in North America, and many more around the world.

  Which ones are *you* talking about?

• The tools companies are more alike than not. They all sell tools for a profit, in many cases, to unsuspecting newbies who think the tools actually work.

  Dexter Yager? Is that the guy who was charged with sexual harrassment and whose wife makes up new books in the Bible?

  http://www.amquix.info/yager_harasment_suit.html

  http://www.amquix.info/amway_birdie_religion.htm

  http://network21amway.blogspot.com/

• Still making stuff up, huh? Yager was “charged” with sexual harrassment? Any evidence for that? or just a civil complaint that never even went to court?

  As for the Birdie Yager “sermon”, as far as I’m concerned all the books of the bible were made up, I don’t particularly care if someone wants to make up a new one. Heck, seems to have worked out well for Joseph Smith.

  In any case, i have zero urge to listen to anybodies sermon’s to determine if you’re telling the truth about that one. Experience tells me it’s likely that you’re not.

  But anyway, lets her about your evidence that say, Heckel, operates the same way as say, Schwarz Organization. Both of them are much much bigger operations than WWDB in North America, which you were involved with.

  Clearly you know how they operate, so please share, ’cause I have no idea.

• I am a real 23 year old entrepreneur I own a private security business and a automotive business I have seen many a scheme of “amway” and other types similar to it. In my opinion you are not a business owner! nor is what you calm is worth a red cent in anyone’s pocket. you are just a pawn in someone else’s game with a slight chance of becoming a king if you reach the other side of the board. I have a friend of mine that spent 2 years of his life trying to sell products from “amway” like i told him if I want something name brand I can just go online and order it from the company them self. I also have a full time job doing something that none you would really understand if I told you but, my average income is about 200k a year and that is not including what I get from my 2 business. they usually average me about 25k every quarter ( after expenses and tax) hard work dose pay off but, if you want something that you can call your own. don’t buy into someone else’s business start you own the satisfactions and and rewards will be 3 times the amount of time and money you will spend on someone else’s “get rich” type business.

• SLeven7,

  Good post. If the Amway opportunity was limited to what you describe, it would still suck but what makes the opportunity even more insidious is the folks who sell tools and conventions to these hopeful and eager IBOs. The tools and conventions account for many of the financial losses and horror stories that you see all over the internet.

• Sleven7,

  Can you try something for me? Stop working on your businesses and your job. Stop doing anything.

  Come back to me in 10 years and tell me how much you’re making from them.

  I’m a “real” 43 year old entrepreneur, I’ve owned a number of businesses, both traditional and internet, as well as an Amway business (several, technically). Some (well, one) failed, others made me a lot of money. I’ve not had a job since 1997.

  My original Amway business I’ve done nothing with since 1999 except pay the yearly renewal fee. I don’t even live in the same country it is in. 13 years later it still earns me profit, every year.

  I’ve seen many people spend tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars on traditional businesses and end up losing everything. I’ve seen people quit their jobs to start businesses, and 2 years later be back looking for work.

  I still think, for the right people, owning a business is the way to go.

  I’ve also seen many people start Amway businesses. Some of them have spent hundreds of dollars, and never made much money, even “lost” money when they decided not to pursue it. I’ve also seen people start Amway and develop global businesses with 8 figure turnovers, making them way more in a year than you make.

  I still think, for the right people, starting an Amway business is the way to go.

  I’ve also seen many people like you, Sleven7, who unfortunately have very little idea how Amway actually works and give opinions based on misinformation and ignorance. That’s not meant as a slam on you, Sleven7. Amway is unusual as far as opportunities go – the more you research it, the *better* it gets.

• Stop working my job? I still have gains from the money I have saved and invested.

  What are you receiving from your Amway business? Is it significant or negligible? Being that Amway, at least in the US, has a yearly renewal fee, I doubt that many people could even make a negligible amount of money from an Amway business. And the reasons are quite clear. Their prices in general, are premium, and their products in general, are generic. While I’m sure Amway might have some good deals, I’m also certain I can find just as good value elsewhere through an online venue.

• Their products, in general, are generic?

  Let’s go there shall we. What are Amway’s products?

  Nearly $5 billion of Amway sales last year were from Nutrilite, Nearly $3 billion where from personal care lines, Artistry, Beauty Cycle, Tolsom, Moiskin etc. eSpring and atmosphere made up another $2.2billion.

  If you think Nutrilite, Artistry, eSpring, and Atmosphere are “generic” then it’s no wonder you didn’t make money with Amway – you obviously never bothered to learn a damn thing about the products you were supposed to be marketing.

  This list hasn’t been updated for a while, but here is a list of just some of the awards and recognitions Amway’s products have received over the years

  Significant or negligible are subjective terms, Joecool. Most people would think finding $50 sitting on the sidewalk “significant”. Personally I think the thousands I’ve received are significant. You may not.

• If Amway stuff were so good and easily marketable, Amway could put them on store shelves and compete with Proctor and Gamble. Instead, they have IBOs as their primary customers. In many instances, IBOs who are making defacto obligatory purchases because they have been sold a dream that somehow Amway will make them financially free.

  Many Amway products are generic when compared to more well known products out there such as Tide, or Mr. Clean, or Centrum Silver, or Maybeline.

• Tell me Joecool, why on earth would Amway change their strategy and put their products on supermarket shelves, when the strategy they use has made them globally #1 and #3 in their top brands?

  Does that make sense? Really?

  I’ll ignore your Tide and Mr Clean examples since home care products are such a small part of Amway these days.

  Centrum Silver comparable to Nutrilite? Did you learn *anything* about Nutrilite when you were an IBO?

  Let’s compare.

  Centrum Silver, 60 tablets, list price $9.99 = 16.7c/tablet
  Nutrilite Daily, 90 tablets, list price $13.40, 14.9c/tablet

  Nutrilite Daily is cheaper

  Furthermore, while the US NLM database shows that, for “regular” vitamins and minerals, the products are relatively similar Daily vs Centrum), however Nutrilite also includes 518mg of Nutrilite organic plant concentrate, which includes Alfalfa Concentrate (Leaf And Stem), Alfalfa/Watercress/Parsley Concentrate, Kelp, Acerola Concentrate (Malpighia Glabra) (Fruit), Spinach Dehydrate (Spinacia Oleracea) (Leaf And Stem), Electrolytic Iron, and Carrot Pulp Powder (Daucus Carota) (Root).

  If you’d bothered learning about the products when you were an IBO, Joecool, you’d know that plants, unlike synthetic vitamins, contain a wide range of phytonutrients that are important to your health in their own right, as well as improving the bioavailability and effectiveness of other vitamins and minerals.

  If you’d bothered learning about the products when you were an IBO, Joecool, you’d know that Nutrilite has the largest organic farms in North America, as well as farms elsewhere in the world, where they control every step of production, from seed to bottling, monitoring the quality and nutrition of the products at every stage, including a really ingenious (and patented) method for dehydrating plant material while maintaining nutritional quality. No other company has this, Joecool.

  If you’d bothered learning about the products when you were an IBO, Joecool, you’d know that, year after year, Nutrilite is named by Consumer Labs as having the most satisfied customers in North America.

  If you’d bothered learning about the products when you were an IBO, Joecool, you’d know that, year after year, you’d know that, year after year, Nutrilite is named as one of Readers’ Digest’s “Most Trusted Brands” throughout Asia.

  If you’d bothered learning about the products when you were an IBO, Joecool, you’d also have learned that Artistry is independently categorised in the “prestige” or premium category of skincare and cosmetics, alongside L’Oreal’s Lancome brand, not the “mass market” category where L’Oreal’s Maybelline brand competes – and Artistry is usually cheaper. Amway’s Beauty Cycle and Moiskin brands are designed (and priced) to compete with Maybelline – and the Amway brands are usually cheaper.

  If you’d bothered learning about the products when you were an IBO, Joecool, you might have made some money, instead of apparently self-condemning yourself, year after year, to spending your life ranting about Amway on your many blogs and sites like these.

• Blah blah blah. Nutrilte daily is cheaper. Why do IBOs promote double x?

  Please answer this question.

  #1 in sales. Good. Take out purchases by IBOs and tell me where that ranking is.

  Please answer this question.

  The bottom line for our readers is that the average IBO income is around $100 a month. Amway reported that the average “active” IBO earns just over $200 a month, but the term average includes all IBOs, which would make the average IBO earnings about $100 a month before expenses.

  Sorry, but math bears out that Amway is not a good business for most who get involved.