IS AMWAY A SCAM?

1,020 thoughts on “IS AMWAY A SCAM?”

• Shekhar is back! Shekhar is in the house!

  Shekhar, why is it that you have NO problem tossing around fictional and hypothetical (big words… look them up) dollar amounts (“When I learn how to make USD 2600 PER MONTH…” as in “When pigs fly…”) but when it comes to a simple FACT (like how much, in actuality, you really make, Or lose, each month) you say “none of your goddamn business!”?

  Shekhar, you are a typical AmBot – Won’t shut up when it comes to spewing fiction but are deathly afraid of stating or facing the truth… that you’ve been doing this for years and are still losing money. That you are, in fact, a sucker.

  Come on, Shekhar! what do you make? We promise we won’t tell the IRS Millionaire Division.

• I joined Amway about 2 months ago and have nothing negative to say about it thus far. My mother loves the cleaning products, and I love their vitamins and supplements.

  The way I see it is, I’m buying products from myself that I already use, so why not give it a shot?

  My uncle did Amway 20 years ago and had some great success with it but its clear to me that it required some work.

  I went to one of their conferences in Kentucky (I live in Texas), and it was an amazing experience. Being around 15,000 people who are excited about the same thing as you is exhilarating.

  Even if this business doesn’t work out for me, I’ve learned how to be a more confident person and I’ve met some great people along the way.

  I think anyone with an open-mind, looking for a second income, and a people person should look into this opportunity. Success is never guaranteed, but the journey is more important than the end and the start.

• I like Eric’s comment. I don’t really want to debate just throw some things out there.

  1. Why should shekhar tell you how much he’s making when it obviously wouldn’t change your guys’ minds?

  2. Amway is accredited by the BBB.

  3. Amway is the #2 in making millionaires. (#1 is microsoft) I know a lot of ppl that are successful everyday. LOC (legacy of clean) is the number one rated cleaning product in America. Plus it’s all natural. Kurt Warner is the spokesmen for nutrilite and Sandra Bullock for Artistry. The products are top notch.

  4. The question is not whether or not it works. It’s whether or not you want it and are willing to do it.

  5. If you guys don’t like it then more power to ya! Just don’t say it doesn’t work.

  This video is awesome! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZiw15VgWoI

  Just some food for thought :D

• Eric/Sharea,

  You are BOTH missing the point. Did you really already use vitamins at the prices you’re now paying? It requires much more work than it should, because you don’t understand your upline is probably making several times more from the tools than from Amway, and over 99% of IBOs are doing things like traveling hundreds of miles to attend a function, which could be held locally if the recommendations on my site were followed (click on my name for the specifics). If it doesn’t work out for you, the reasons will include you are being ripped off via the Amway Tool Scam (ATS). Only a foolish business person would say the journey is more important than the beginning and end points. Interesting how your upline talks about goals yet can get you to think in this manner.

  1. Shekhar is probably like the over 99% of IBOs losing money.
  2. The BBB refuses to address the ATS. I know, I sent them an email complaining about the ATS and they said to take it to the state Attorneys General, which I did.
  3. Where are your statistics to prove Amway is #2 at making millionaires?
  4. The question is whether you are going to realize you’re being ripped off via the ATS.
  5. I don’t just say it doesn’t work. Click on my name and read my site for literally thousands of facts.

  Your video is a cartoon, my site is factual. Just some facts for thought!

• #3 Continued – Kurt Warner made a mistake, and Sandra Bullock WAS a spokesperson in Europe.

• “I don’t really want to debate just throw some things out there”

  In other words, I don’t really want to have to consider another viewpoint, you should just drink the Kool aid lke I did

  “1. Why should shekhar tell you how much he’s making”

  Shekhar is promoting Amway as a moneymaking opportunity but he’s never made a profit. We just want to see how much we can lose each month like you and Shekhar”

  “Amway is the #2 in making millionaires. (#1 is microsoft)”
  Amway is #1 at making up bogus claims and getting naive Ambot zombies to repeat them as fact. Seriously, where did you get that bs.

  98% of all amway products are purchased by their Ibos and the other 2% by their mothers. According to research the average ibo has an IQ just 12 points above clinical retardation. 10% of all ibos are killed each year by irate neighbors, exfriends and spouses who just can’t take it anymore.

  See how easy it is?

  “Amway is the #2 in making millionaires. (#1 is microsoft)”

• i worked for both amway and shaklee
  i have a sister in law that works for avon
  all three companies you get what you put in
  with all three you must put in time and money if not you will not get back anything
  with all three you must work and irrateate everone around you (sorry)
  kills freinds fast
  there are worst things then this try gathering walnuts or acorn or even pine nuts when there in season
  all i can say is that my sister in law lost freinds as well as me
  there is a new one out now thou you might like it
  lingere sales

• A look in my rear view mirror. I was involved in Amway many years ago, (1973) when I was 24 years old. I was initially drawn into the dream that Amway could make all my dreams come true. They are indeed like a cult or a religion that is really taking advantage of one’s desire for better things and they are really promising a happy ending for all. I dropped out after a few months as I began to realize that my future with this business really was dependent on other people’s efforts. I remember the meetings where you were asked to share your life’s goals and dreams openly. Now, let me fast forward to the present. I obtained my life’s goals by earning everything through hard work and perseverance. I am financially secure and have been debt free since 1984. My advice to all is to believe in yourself.

• Wow…I read through this entire blog and what I get from this is that everyone has an opinion. Most people have negative experiences being IBOs and like many other human beings they NEED someone to blame.

  Just wanted to start out by saying I am not associated with Amway whatsoever but I’ve seen the mentality time and time again….. As a general rule people are lazy and more so, gullible. Most will look for a scheme to get rich quick. They find something that has the best pitch and praise it as being the end all of business ventures. They get all excited and invest a minimal amount of effort. When it doesn’t turn out the way they anticipated (sit on the couch and do nothing after two weeks and expect to collect thousands) they become disgruntled and look for something to blame which is usually the company that a short time before they were so excited about. So now you start bad mouthing a company because your lazy nature didn’t produce the results you wanted.

  And while I agree that they dangle glamorous lifestyles in front of you, almost all of these companies disclose to you up front that you need to work hard for these results. People forget that. Kind of like when they pay for a gym membership and never go and wonder why they’re still out of shape and broke. You get out of it what you put into it.

  And why badmouth a company that you buy something from??? If i like pepsi a d you’re a fan of coke, should I keep pushing my belief on you til you like pepsi too??? You people that are doing all the bashing are just as bad as the ones that work for the company. If someone wants to give it a shot why not just let them??? Kind of like the lottery in that aspect don’t you think??? Gotta be in it to win it…

  I happen to be a fan of a certain author. Not gonna mention the name but they have some catchy titles. One of my bestfriends saw the book and without even reading a page of it started calling me a sucker and a fool and that it wasn’t worth the paper it was printed on let alone what I paid for it. “so you think that by reading that book you’re going to get rich?? The only person getting rich is the person that wrote it and by you buying it……”. Yet had he read even a chapter he would have realized that the author never claimed to make you rich and to have all the secrets to doing so. It was more of a frame of mind and concepts then anything else. All of which had very credible backing but he ll never understand that. Ignorance is not always bliss

  Because of the books I read I learned how to take control of my finances, work my primary job and run a successful powerwashing business with several other ventures up and coming. Are they all going to be successful??? Who knows?? But I personally would rather have a shot at success doing something than a guaranteed failure doing nothing.

  To all you Amway IBOs. Best of luck to you. Just do it whole heartfelt and don’t let anyone pull the wool over your eyes and sell you a bunch of stuff you don’t need. Have the common sense to realize when you’re getting taken for a ride. Take whatever you can get out of these tools and keep moving. Even a failure should be a life lesson learned.

  PS. My skeptic friend, bashing the book I was reading…..works for me in my powerwashing company. Why be an employee when you could’ve been a partner??? Work hard and learn always

• One more thing. Everybody keeps questioning shekhar on how much he’s invested and how much profit he’s made. Anyone of you start a business from scratch??? I have. It’s almost ridiculous to ask someone just starting out how much they’ve made in their first year up and running. You’d be lucky if you were able to cover your start up costs ( and ALL business have them) in your first year of operation. Some of you skeptics have some nerve.

• Considering that Amway has a low start up cost and basically no overhead, it should be easy to determine how much was made or lost. Also, results should be seen right away since most IBOs show a 2-5 year plan to go diamond, which would is supposed to supply a lifelong residual income.

  As for bad mouthing Amway, it appears that the criticism is focused on the diamond leaders who lie and deceive while earning most of their income from selling useless tools and motivation rather than from Amway,

• JoeCool,
  Your last point made me come out of hibernation!
  The statement that diamonds make most of their money from selling useless tools is totally false, an utter lie which Amway critics use viciously. Let me explain. The system is so very ABOVE BOARD and honest that they openly state that “IN ADDITION to Amway, money is also made from tools. Amway quitters (people quit studies, jobs, life!) use the INCOMPLETE sentence so honest people will think “o these guys are out to cheat us”. Adios JoeCool. No more arguing withe likes of you! You will remain where you are. I have a vehicle unlike you to go to “SOME” place other than where you are right now…..

• Hi Stefan,
  This one is for you! I really appreciate your write up! A true businessman understands business. Not like these guys out there who think business is for suckers and jobs are for winners!
  You will do well too in your endeavors Stefan. I am sure of it.
  Take care and all the best.

• Thanks shekhar and good luck to you. I’m sure that judging by some of the stats I’ve seen you have a tough road ahead of you. However there is money just waiting to be made by someone so why shouldn’t that someone be you?

  As for Joecool, I really don’t have an argument for you. However I do have to ask a question. I’ve seen your posts and obviously you are very passionate about Amway being a scam. So my question is exactly how much cash-flow have you received from your efforts?? That’s what I love about the skeptics, they can invest so much passion time and effort into telling me how my venture isn’t going to work. Yet they have nothing to show for their efforts. My suggestion would be to stop telling some hard working individuals that they’re being scammed and destined for failure and invest at least half of your passion and effort into something of your own that will actually put money in your pocket. Shekhar apparently found his passion and very well might be wildly successful with it or he may fail miserably. No offense shekhar. But at least he’s doing SOMETHING. I’m not saying that you should buy into the next make money fast thing that you see but spend some of your downtime coming up with something that works for you. You seem like an intelligent individual and I’m sure you’ll do fine if you just bother trying. You could be more successful than either myself or shekhar. You’ll never know that though until you at least give it a shot. Like I said about one of my best friends. He could’ve been my partner or he could’ve come up with something on his own and been insanely successful. But all he had was skepticism. Now when he needs a little extra cash he works for me. He can’t even afford to buy his way into my business now. But hey, what do I know??? I only read a couple of “scam” books and “useless training tools”. Not amway’s tools but you get my point. You take whatever you can possibly get out of ANY situation (success or failure) and you’ll always come out on top.

  Best of wishes to all of you. Keep learning and invest your time and efforts wisely. That’s the key to success and not one scheme or book can teach you that.

• Hi JoeCool,

  You see the difference between people who have invested in their dreams and those who (like you, I am sorry to say), who haven’t.

  Did you notice the difference in “quality of an individual” between you and those who have been “Scammed” into reading scam books and apparently those books from which people have made a lot of money?

  I rest my case.

• Stefan wrote “Everybody keeps questioning shekhar on how much he’s invested and how much profit he’s made. Anyone of you start a business from scratch??? I have. It’s almost ridiculous to ask someone just starting out how much they’ve made in their first year up and running.”

  Stefan: Shekhar has been involved with Amway since before December, 2007. 4 years seems ample time to be able to establish some sales and expense numbers.

  Shekhar has no problem spreading BOGUS numbers to entice the desperate and/or greedy. He claimed his best friend makes $250K thru Amway, that he knows more than 5 couples that make about $2500 per month, that he knows a woman who bought BMWs for her 16 yr old daughters. Yet he refuses to admit that he has worked since 2007 and has not made jacksh*t.

  Seriously, what kind of moron would promote a biz opp for 4 yrs as a great way to make money and then get offended when asked how much money HE makes? An Amway moron, that’s what kind.

  PEOPLE OF EARTH: If you are approached by someone wanting you to get involved with Amway… RUN! Exposure to their products damages your common sense, your ability to process logical thoughts, and your self-respect. It will make you annoying, boring, dishonest, moronic, greedy, self-delusional and highly unpopular. Your spouse will be even more disgusted with you than he/she/it is now. Even your dog will avoid you.

  Don’t end up like Shekhar, having lost four years and replaced the few friends he had with toxic Ambot Zombies who get together and dream up ways to sucker others into getting zombified like them. After all, friends don’t let friends sell amway.

• This is a funny conversation, but i hope you do realize that just cuase you cant do good in this business doesn’t mean it’s a scam. Learn about the business, experience the business. If you can’t get successful; while others are making a lot more than you. YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, you aren’t committed or your a dumb f**k.

  Toxic Ambot Zombies, geez you must be retarted. If your reading this, you can’t trust other people like this dumbass up here. There are plenty of people who have done well in this business and just cuase others haven’t; doesn’t mean you cant. These people are just hating and jealous of the fact they aren’t making money or that they have failed in Amway.

  Amway may not have the “best” products, but they do beat most of the products out there. For example, Nutrilite is one of the world’s best supplements you can take for better health. XS enegry is #2 to Redbull which gives you bad aftertaste and hangovers. And E-Spring, After you install it, water is 5 cents a gallon. How much are you paying for water? E-Spring uses UV lights to kill over 99% of germs and bacteria in water.

  You haters can think what you want but when you try Amway, you’ll think different and like i said in the paragraph above. IF this business isn’t working for you, YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, you aren’t committed or your a dumb f**k.

  I’m not the only one out there, look at others and all the postive comments are people who have done this business and are successful. You haters can think that they are brainwashing you but they are trying to help you. If you think becoming successful in life is bad, then GOD CAN ONLY HELP YOU.

  Try to write something, I’m ready for ya…

• Stefan,

  Look at this “Guest” and his statements. Look at the quality of people who trash any opportunity without even knowing about it.
  These guys just looked up my profile and found out that I had started one web page long time ago and I was not using it. Then I thought, heck, why not use it for Amway. So these guys took it for granted that I have been in this biz for a long time.
  I owe NO explanation to these people and that has pissed them off (I like it!).
  It is only for you so you should not start thinking that I have been in this biz for long. Furthermore, the amount of success depends upon HOW much time one puts in any endeavor. I have a full time job, family and some other obligations. What do these guys care – so why should i even explain to them.

  He calls me a “moron” – imaging his level of intelligence! Look at how vicious these guys are! Enough is enough. Let me retort to their venom in manner:

  Guest and co:
  Stay where you are. Stay broke.
  Keep barking, the caravan is not going to stop for idiots like you!

  Good luck to them.

  Take care Stefan – no point in arguing with insane people.

• Has anyone else noticed that a lot of Amway people are compulsive liars? Do you think liars are attracted to Amway, or do they jusr become liars after they join? Do you think it’s the culture, the brainwashing mentality or just the desperate attempts to rationalize that leads to obviously transparent falsehoods?

  Shekhar writes: “I had started one web page long time ago and I was not using it. Then I thought, heck, why not use it for Amway. So these guys took it for granted that I have been in this biz for a long time.”

  Nice try, but the fact is that Shekhar wrote about his involvement in Amway in a post dated December, 2007. Shortly after I posted the link here, he deleted the site so he could continue to post here and elsewhere as if he’s an excited newbie just getting started with Amway. I don’t know why he doesn’t want people to know he’s been at it since 2007. What is it with these weirdos?

  Reminds me of the old joke:

  Q. How can you tell if an Amway salesman is lying?
  A. His lips are moving!

  Also, has anyone noticed that a lot of Amway defenders online are borderline illiterate? I give Shekhar a pass on this because English is obviously his 2nd language. But “Not a Hater” writes:

  “you must be retarted. If your reading this…”

  Retarted? Do you mean I had to make my tarts a 2nd time? Or did you mean “retarded”?

  By “your” did you mean “you’re”? And were you run-on sentence champ at your special school?

  I don’t mean to be the spelling and grammar police, but I have a theory that a lot of Amway and MLM people are those who didn’t pay attention in school or dropped out, have crappy or no jobs, and are trying to make up for their own shortcomings and laziness with this MLM shortcut illusion of someday laying on a beach while their downline pumps dough into their offshore accounts for no work.

  Not a Hater, I say this out of love and concern and with no sarcasm intended: You will get farther if you spend your time and energy getting your GED and someday taking classes at a Junior College rather than chasing the Amway illusory dream.

  Research proves that college graduates have higher ncomes than HS graduates, HS graduates have higher income than HS dropouts, and HS dropouts, federal prisoners and the homeless all have higher incomes than Scamway IBOs ;)

• Shekhar,

  When I was an IBO, the uplines LIED and said no money was made on tools. So now they tell you money is made. Okay, do you have a legal agreement on how to qualify for tools money and how much you get? I bet you have no idea. If you get double crossed by your upline over tools, you would have no recourse.

  And yes, some diamonds do make much more from tools than Amway. It’s for two simple reasons this is true:

  1. Many diamonds are no longer qualifed so their Amway income has now shrunk.

  2. If you get a venure with 20,000 IBOs paying $125 for a conference, that’s 2.5 million dollars and many of these convention centers will host these conferences for $25 a person. Some bigger venues will allow a convention for free if you bring enough visitors to the city. Try looking it up for yourself. Not to mention the income the diamonds get from standing orders, voicemail and other materials that they sell.

• Joecool continues to obfuscate.

  1. He is well aware that for quite some years now all “tool” companies supplying Amway IBOs in the US are required to have written contractual agreements about tool rebates.

  2. Joecool is also well aware that there’s a lot more to running a convention than just hiring a venue. He knows there’s very large staffing costs, insurance, multimedia, marketing, licensing, taxes etc etc etc etc

  He knows these things but still pretends he doesn’t.

  Then again, this is the guy that has been caught running multiple anti-amway blogs under different names – even going so far as to talk to “himself” in the comments!

  And “guest” calls Amway people “compulsive liars”? Uhuh

• IBOFightback is a well lnown liar and an Amway employee refered to him as a cyber bully. The tool companies may have legal written documents about tools money but these documents are not disbursed and freely shown to IBOs. What they show IBOs is picture of mansions and jets to show that they make a lot of money. But very little or a comlplete lack of transparency.

  Maybe someone should ask IBOFB why he gave his ex wife his precious Amway business in a divorce settlement if the business was so great. Why not give up everything else?

  Maybe someone should ask IBOFB why he hasn’t taken the time since his divorce to rebuild his Amway business if it’s so great? Why spend all this time blogging about it but doing nothing about it? Lazy? Lacking guts? All of the above?

  IBOFB is still obfuscating the facts. While there may be other expenses in running conventions, the bigger conventions still make millions of dollars for the tools companies amd that doesn;t include profits from standing orders, voicemail and books, all of which have little or no marketing and other associated expenses.

• “Some” people suspect IBOFB (David Steadson) is nothing more than a paid schill for Amway. Let the audience decide:

  http://network21amway.blogspot.com/2011/04/truth-about-amway.html

  Is the real “truth about Amway” that “Insider”, site owner of “The Truth About Amway” that he is actually a professional Reputation Manager? If so where would we find out more information about these services – does this evidence leave IBOFightback exposed?
  This question has been asked by many over the years.

  Massive News for those familiar with the history of deceitful Amway business practices, We have some startling new facts about David Steadson AKA IBOFightback / IBOFB / Insider / Insider201283 / Icerat who runs the pro Amway site “The Truth About Amway”. For years many have suspected him to be paid by Amway for public relations efforts and positive reporting. Finally he has been found to intend to offer such services to direct marketing corporations as a service provider of professional public relations image management and we have proof by his own admission below!

  Talk about “selling your soul” for the almighty dollar.

  For those who are not aware of David Steadson, he’s known to go to any lengths to make his point. Accused by many of lying and spinning the truth on several other high profile Amway sites, it now appears he may in fact offer his spindoctor services for a living. He is the only vocal pro-Amway person on the internet we know of. He runs at least 20 (we found 23+) sites dedicated to attempting to improve the public image of Amway, Network 21 and Multi Level Marketing schemes in general. Unlike most information sites on the subject his have a positive slanted point of view, not in balance with the majority opinion that these companies do in reality suck.

• JoeCool continues his merry way with blatant disregard for the truth, let alone ethics.

  (1) He well knows that Amway was referring to someone that hat claimed was threatening to reveal information about him as a “cyberbully”, not me. It later appeared that JoeCool made up the threats, but while busy trying to cover up his tracks the world learned way way too much about JoeCool’s illegal sexual peccadilloes.

  (2) JoeCool also knows I am not a paid schill for Amway, it’s been publicly and multiple times stated by both myself and Amway. That post by “mr million” is full of numerous outright lies. I have stated as much to him, unfortunately he hides under anonymity otherwise I’d sue him to penniless oblivion (well, except for the fact he’s already there). If Joecool persists in repeating the lies I’d do the same to him (easier since he’s been identified). Alas, both of these characters live on the other side of the planet and international legal costs make it impractical to do much about it. Such is the nature of the internet, where liars can hide and spout whatever rubbish they like,

  Joecool and his cohorts care little for the truth, instead relying on innuendo, misleading or false information, and of course that old favourite, ad hominems galore.

• IBOFB was the cyber bully refered to by Amway. It was he who wrote disparaging article about me on his website. Some people have speculated that IBOFB had a hand in this whole thing.

  Secondly, I never said you were a paid schill (reading comprehension? I said some people suspect that you are paid to defend Amway. I say the readers can decide for themselves.

  You continue to defend a business opprtunity where nearly all people, even hard workers,.end up losing money. You admit yourself that you do not earn a significant income from Amway. There is zero unbiased evidence that hard work and following the system results in success. Instead the internet is littered with stories of failure and lost income because of this wonderful opportunity.

  You do more harm convincing people that this is a viable opportunity than those who are skeptical about it. Says a lot about your lack of character.

  :)

• No, Amway was referring to the (apparently fake) claims you received of you receiving threats. I didn’t bully you at all, poor thing, I simply investigated the claims, that you highlighted, that you were spending extensive time discussing your illegal infidelities on sex web sites. Ended up they were true. You then went to extensive efforts to lie about it, including deleting large swathes of commentary on your website. I still have copies of it all, do you want me to post it up here for all to read?

  But you continue to lie and misdirect. You claim I “admit yourself that you do not earn a significant income from Amway” while ignoring the fact that I (a) have in the past and (b) repost Mr Millionaires falsehoods about why I handed that over to my former wife … and you continue to post his other falsehoods that you apparently don’t even believe yourself under that old canard of the propagandist – let the reader decide!

  Shall we start a tally? Joecool –
  1. lied about being threatened (by, he implies, an IBO) and then deletes his lies when caught, and lies and got caught covering up the lies about visiting illegal prosititutes while married, which is what the alleged “threat” was about
  2. pretended to be different people and ran (runs?) multiple anti-amway blogs
  3. publishes false and misleading price comparisons – on multiple times
  4. apparently doesn’t even know some of the basics of the Amway business, like how Platinums qualify
  5. continues to post or promote false and defamatory information about me

  not to mention all the false and misleading information he posts about Amway, like claiming “nearly all people, even hard workers,.end up losing money”

  Joecool has been shown to be a liar again and again. His obsessive behaviour regarding Amway (nearly 300 blogposts in 2010 alone!) is more than a little concerning. If he’s not paid by competitors then his mental health is certainly questionable.

  Sadly, some people believe the crap he writes.

• ibofightback:
  I remember reading your earlier comments and your blog a while back and, while I didn’t buy all you were saying, always thought you kept it professional and didn’t stoop to ad hominem attacks like your detractors. In your recent stuff it appears that joecool has gotten you to lose yours. Maybe since you both outed the others’ identiies, which was pretty uncool on both sides.

  Stuff like the prostitute allegations make you, not joecool, look bad. After all, his defense could be that paying prostitutes is cheaper than getting screwed by Amway ;) I think your arguments are stronger if you leave the lowblows to them and you be the one who is rational and direct.

  I’m not saying it’s true, but from the outside it would seem plausible, if not likely, that you are somehow paid by Amway for online reputation management. It actually would be money well-spent (if it were openly disclosed), because you singlehandedly make this a debate. The anti-Amway hoards would have trampled the likes of Shekhar into paste long ago.

  Why do you spend this exorbitant amount of time and energy defending a multilevel marketing program that (according to others) you don’t practice? What is your day job? Doesn’t this detract from it? Or are you a multimillionaire who prefers arguing Amway to supermodels and yacht racing?

  Lots of people are motivated by anger to expose scams. I get them. You’re the first I’ve seen dedicated to defending a for-profit company he has no financial stake in. You said that if joecool is not being paid, his mental health is certainly questionable. Isn’t that even more true of you?

  PS If you’re not being paid by Amway, you should be. Have you ever discussed it with them?

• joecool:
  I think taking the name “joecool” comes with a certain responsibility to be, well, cool.
  Pulling off ibofightback’s mask isn’t cool.
  Bringing up his personal life, divorce, etc. isn’t cool.
  Implying in the same post that he’s both an Amway shill and being criticized by Amway as a bully is not cool.
  If he’s an Amway shill, that’s pretty serious stuff.
  “In its revised endorsements and testimonials guides issued last year, the FTC specified that… the online post by a person connected to the seller, or someone who receives cash or in-kind payment to review a product or service, should disclose the material connection the reviewer shares with the seller of the product or service.”
  If you believe he is a paid agent of Amway, you should offer some substantiation.
  If you don’t, then saying “some people believe” is just weaselly.

  Be cool, Joe. When accused of using prostitutes, have some cool comebacks. Like:
  “I got screwed by Amway. Prostitutes are better. And cheaper.”
  Or
  “I had no choice. Word got out I sold Amway, no unpaid woman would talk to me”
  Or
  “Why are prostitutes better than Amway? Both screw you & take all your money, but prostitutes don’t make you go to those damn meetings.”
  Anyone else…?

• “guest”
  (1) I don’t “spend this exorbitant amount of time and energy”. As one of the links I gave showed, I did 22 blog posts last year, that compares to JoeCool’s 248, and that didn’t include the blogs we later discovered were by him pretending to be someone else

  (2) The “prostitute allegations” were raised by Joecool, not myself. And ended up they were true, not allegations. The evidence is still there on World Sex Guide.

  (3) I got involved in defending Amway online when I saw lots of crap being said about them I knew from experience simply wasn’t true. I then researched the company further and learned even more about how unfair many of the attacks against them were. If I find others being attacked unfairly, in any arena, I’ll defend them too if I can.

  (4) But yes, it p***ed me off incredibly when folk like Larsen, JoeCool and Mr Million have brought not only my children in to the debate (larsen published a photo of me with my son), but also made up and published and republished allegations against my former wife. They’re frankly scum of the earth to do so. Again, it was joecool who first raised the prostitution allegations regarding himself, claiming he and his family had been threatened.

  (5) I’m an entrepreneur, I have several business interests. I pretty much do as I please with my time and have done for many years.

• guest – LOL re the clever comebacks :)

  Regarding the FTC disclosure I’m not American, so it wouldn’t apply to me anyway. Having said that there is a disclaimer on the top right of my blog.

• Well, the FTC disclosure rule would apply to Amway if it came out that they were paying people to shill for them. They’re American (ulp). There’s been big backlashes against companies when stuff like that came out, like a blog secretly financed by Edelman on behalf of Walmart. Not that Amway has a big reputation for honesty that would be tarnished.

  I’m not a fan of Amway or MLM in general, but I think violating people’s right to privacy as commenters, etc. on the Internet is much more damaging than the propaganda spewed by MLM zealots. It’s a discussion, a debate folks. You get unlimited chances to make your points and plead your case. There’s no excuse for exposing identities behind screennames except for extreme cases or illegal activity, IMHO.

  Leave people’s families out of it. I think the people on both sides of these feuds are deranged, why make their families suffer more? Isn’t it enough that their Dads/Husbands/Sons/Daughters spend more time on their computers than with them? That they walk around the house grumbling about people named JoeCool, IBO Fightback, Tex and Shekhar? Next thing your cyberenemies will be showing up at your doorstep. Back it off, dudes.

  You guys should seriously consider agreeing to go back and delete the identities and personal info. The reputation you save may be your own. And lighten the F up.

  Lucky for me, “guest” is my real name so no one can “out” me. :)

• IBOFightback aka insider aka David Steadson continues his pedantry ad nauseum. For some reason, he just cannot handle the fact that his arguing points have all been dismantled by the Amway critics – because the facts are on our side. And furthermore, IBOFB made allegations against me, none of them have even been proven. Who made him judge, jury and executioner?

  It is a fact that more than 99% of IBOs on the system lose money. It is a fact that there is no unbiased evidence to indicate that the system works. It is a fact that Amway has a poor retention rate for both IBOs and customers.

  People who allegedly reached Amway Nrivana (residual income, walking the beaches) are like Sasquatch, Many have heard of them but no bonafide proof of their existence. The poot retention rate of IBOs and customers support this point.

  The products (some may be good) are over priced because the 30% bonuses Amway pays out are part of the product cost. Unless you are basically a platinum receiving 25%. you don’t get a good value. The majority rank and file IBOs in the 3% bonus bracket end up doing the most work and getting the smallest bonus.

  Most of the content of the “tools” have no value outside of the Amway business and the tools business itself looks and appears to be an illegal pyramid. The tools business has never been investigated by the FTC.

  Many of the tool kingspins have lied and deceived downline. Some continue to do it today.

  Those are the facts. IBOFB can dispute them but they are still facts.

• Unbelievable……outing people??? Personal jabs at each other???? Where does it end???? We aren’t politicians here people, bringing personal issues in to discredit ones position is just appalling. Stop the insanity people. To go to such lengths to win a debate that you’re not going to get paid for just seems ridiculous. Why do you care so much ??? So you tried being an IBO and it didn’t work out for you you make it your lifes mission to destroy the company??? Get a life, move on. There are literally thousands of people that work for this company and make money. Thousands more have tried and failed. The company doesn’t seem to be my cup of tea but why should I make it my life mission to try and discredit the likes of shekar and company.??? It works for him and I commend him on his effort. How much money does he make??? WHO CARES??? The fact is he is happy doing what he’s doing so respect it and move on. It’s not like he’s here trying to recruit people for his down line or completely mislead people. He’s simply in here defending his passion. Why discourage that?? Maybe he’s makin money and he’s happy…

  This is all my opinion but really people, come on. Get a life it’s just getting pathetic

• Good points, Stefan. But it’s gone too far for them to drop it.
  I propose a duel.
  Not a to-the-death duel, but maybe 6 rounds in a boxing ring.
  Or a hot-dog eating contest.
  Paintball duel? Chili cookoff? Talent show?
  Pie-baking contest?
  One is in UK, one is in Hawaii, right?
  The halfway point is right around Moline, IL.
  Let’s all go. If IBOFB wins, we all join his downline.
  If joecool wins, we’ll chip in and send him to Miss Kitty’s Luv Shack on Rt. 12 for “the works”.
  Once we have brokered a lasting peace, we all win.
  Who’s down for Moline?

• Shekar: See you in Moline?

• LOL

  Make it full contact MMA and I’m all in :)

• You should all come to Hawaii and I’ll challenge IBOFightback to a surfing contest. If you decide on a lying contest, IBOFB will win hands down.

  :)

• OK, we’ll make it Hawaii and whichever one of you pays my airfare and expenses wins.

  And no, shekhar, you can’t stay in my room.

• IBOFB will pay your airfare with the millions he makes from Amway. :)

• You can easily tell that Amway is a complete scam. How?

  Whatever percentage you choose of $0.00 will always be $0.00

  So if you get 10 “distributors under” you, you’ll get X% of their sales. But X% of nothing is still zero. So unless they actually go out and sell some soap, you’re going to get X% of nothing.

  But, of course, they don’t want to go out and sell soap. That’s not where the “big money” is. They want to sign up more “distributors.” So they all manage to go out and sign up 10 people under each of them.

  Oh boy, now you’re really raking it in, right? Because you’ve got “distributors under distributors under you.” Now you’re getting 2X% of their sales. But, since nobody’s still selling any soap, your “percentage” is still zip-point-zero dollars.

  Ooooh, you make it to the big leagues. You’re now a “double diamond distributor.” But nobody “under” you is going out to sell any soap, because that’s not where the big bucks are. They’re all out trying to suck their friends and family into the scam.

  How do I know nobody is actually out selling soap? When was the last time you saw an Amway product in anybody’s home that didn’t “work” for Amway?

• My husband is in Amway for the 2nd time, 1st time was 15 years ago and it was a no go. Alot of time and money spent, I was involved the first time too. About 3 years ago he came to me and wanted to try it again, I was internally digusted, but knew I couldn’t stop him. Anyway, thousands spent both times with small checks in return. We could have a bigger home by now and perhaps a second home with all the money spent. My husband just spends all our money on products from Amway to reach certain levels each month, all the products are inflated prices. It is killing us financially and he still is brainwashed. No profit, no business, just a money pit of hobby. Our marriage is almost over, not that it is Amway’s fault, but the local higher ups at the meetings know this and just keep pontificating to him!! Don’t they see he has been doing this for years with no prospects in his group! You would think they would tell him to save his marriage, but they brainwash people.

• I’ve been assuming that Ambots are motivated purely by greed and knowingly lie to others simply to get their money. But Shekhar and Laura’s husband have been losing money for over three years. It’s obvious to everyone (maybe even themselves) it’ll never get better. Why are they so desperate to cling to the myth of wealth-without-working that they’ll work so hard to believe?

  Is it that they have evangelized to loudly they’re embarrassed to admit they were wrong?

  Or they get more emotional payoff from their Ambuddies than from their own marriages?

  Or are the illusions of Amway like a drug they can’t live without?

  Reading Laura’s sad story, it sounds like her husband is an addict and Amway is his drug. I wonder if anyone has drawn that parallel to Amway (and MLM in general) being like a drug for an addict? Even when addicts know it is killing them or destroying the ones they love, they can’t help but choose the comfort of their drug’s illusions. Is that what Amway is like for the true zealots?

  Has anyone heard of an IBO’s family and friends having an intervention, like for an addict?

• And if Amway is like a bad habit or a drug addiction, what do you make of IBOFB (David Steadson) who promotes and defends Amway like his life depended on it?

• People’s personal finances are private and others have no right to ask for it… HOWEVER, when you are presenting an investment, be it a business, stocks, etc, you HAVE to have the finance records to back it up. This makes LOGICAL sense, does it not?

  Shekar, you do not have to divulge your personal income, but if you want to be credible and genuinely have people invest in this business, you must show them your sales and costs related to Amway.

  In a business, you as the proprietor will only get of it as much as you put in. You most likely will not see a profit within the first year- but you will see sales. So to all you IBOs touting that it’s ok you’re not making profits the first few years, at least show me sales. Proof that you are moving product; proof that you are selling to consumers.

  I don’t care about any other “information” going around the interenet, good or bad. Show me your sales numbers, I can compute a forecast, and if there is profit to be made, I will join under you. Not only that, I will get everyone around me to join in and we will pay upfront cash for the starter kits. So if you live in the US, show us proof (ie. a Schedule C tax form) and I will join immediately. Any takers?

• I don’t have a lot to say, I don’t even know details about how the company works, but I do want to share my experience. My father has a tendency to trust people who tell him he can make “easy” money. He is a very honest man, don’t take me wrong, but he is also very naive. We have lost a lot of money every time he gets involved in some sort of “business”. When I was about 10 years old my father became involved with Amway. He was completely brainwashed by the idea. Everyday, while we were in the car driving somewhere, he would listen to these really long, boring tapes. We would beg him to turn it off, but he said he had to listen to them because he needed to learn. I have no idea what he learned, I guess nothing. My mom told him many times that Amway was not a good idea, but he was obsessed. He spent money we didn’t have buying these overpriced, crappy products that we never used, and the stupid tapes he made us listen to. I think he had to pay for seminars too, I am not sure. He tried to get other people to join Amway, but everyone was dodging him. He became this really boring “salesman” nobody wanted to talk to. Bottom line is he never made a dime. It only cost us money. Instead of being an extra income, it became an extra expense that we could not afford. Finally, he ended up getting out. I am not saying it is a scheme, because honestly I don’t know and I could not care less. The truth is, the average Joe that becomes a member doesn’t make any money. The odds are completely against it. My aunt was also a member… I actually thing she was the one who convinced my father to get in… and she didn’t make a dime either. I don’t want to offend anybody, but I have seen the consequences of getting involved with this “company”… I don’t think it is worth the time or the effort.

• I have upgraded R’s personal story (above) to its own post because it brings up an important issue: the effect joining Amway or any MLM organization has on the family.

  Could subjecting children to high doses of motivational recordings over long periods of time be considered child abuse? I believe even Dick Cheney, who defended waterboarding, would consider what R was subjected to “cruel and unusual punishment.” Comments are invited here:

  AMWAY: Is Selling Amway Child Abuse? Amway Kids Weigh In.

• Sounds like to me that you all that are against amway should do you research before you smash this company. Simply put you get what you put in. It is a very positive business that want to see people succeed. No correction they, they put the same time in or match your time. Are they getting paid for this? No. You don’t understand the company cause in my word they Build you up after life have beat you down. Maybe you don’t get it cause you are not ready to change. Amway is a strong spiritual based business. It is not a cult. But what you say or what you think simply don’t matter cause that business is still going to be successful and you nine time out of ten will remain broke. Simply put, you have to have to be a giver in order to get back anything. Maybe you should try helping people from the heart and try to give someone else or educate someone on how to buy and save money than to want something giving to you all the time. There are two types of people in this world giver and takers, it sounds to me that those of you against Amway need to reevaluate yourself before you judge. You get back what you out in. P.S. Amway have been a blessing to most people. Its based on you heart condition.

• Cassandra the wise:
  Thank you for providing some perspective to this crazy conversation.
  I understand now that you have to have to be a giver in order to get back anything.
  How long have you been part of this spiritual company?
  How much do you give every month?
  How much do you get back ($$$ I mean).
  Thank you.
  PS I like your name.

• Cassandra, please put down your cup of kool aid for a second.

  Nobody is “smashing” anything. We are simply debating the merits of joining Amway and the financial results. Amway itself says their average IBO earns $115 a month gross income. Factoring in business expenses, you can easily see that the average IBO earns very little. There is no assurance that you get back what you put it. I was an IBO at 4000 PV and I made nothing. My bonus money simply got channeled back into tool purchases. My wise and caring upline advised me to do so because It was assurance that I would eventually become a diamond and live in wealth and luxury forever. It was a lie.

  You’re likely a new IBO, still enthusiastic about the opportunity that Amway represents. Sadly, most uplines a deceptive when presenting Amway. They will show you the “best case” scenario and not what is likely. And even then, the best case scenario can be fabricated. Do you really think someone making $150,000 a year (average diamond income) can buy mansions and jets in cash?

  Please explain how Amway has been a blessing to most people? I believe more people felt blessed after leaving Amway. Good luck Cassandra!

• I find the interactions between the person(s) from the Amway meetings and the person(s) against Amway kind of interesting. My husband and I were just approched by a so called member that believes he has a website to “help” him and his wife sell items and wanted us to join them.I was trying to find his website and I was able to type in the “Am” part of Amway, but amway scam titles started to pop up before the site name. That just seem a little suspicious to me, or really anyone not desperate and half asleep watching an infomercial. I think the only way for anyone already involved with this company to relize that you shouldn’t have to pay someone to make money is when they have to sell eveything they already bought, thinking they were starting a business, at thier own rummage sale or moving sale because they had to move in with one of the family members that was once a potential costomer. I personally believe that if your going to pay for working you might as well just got to a REAL college and get a REAL degree to better yourself. BTW anyone with a degree in business would know that’s not how you start a bussiness and most of the Amway participants would do better with a franchises.