IS AMWAY A SCAM?

1,020 thoughts on “IS AMWAY A SCAM?”

• I’m asking a literal, straight forward honest question. I expect the same in your reply.

• At present I’m “in Amway” primarily because I want the products, I have no “Amway goal” apart from placing orders when I want something, and getting it.

  I built an Amway business successfully some years ago (long story) but since then I’ve had some significantly changed life circumstances and prioritised other things. I think it’s more likely than not that at some time in the future I will build an Amway business again, but no guarantees. I’ve had a few false starts at that over the years, but as I said, other priorities. My choice!

  The Amway business model doesn’t care if I sit around and do nothing business-wise for 20 years, it’ll be around if or when I decide to do so.

  I frankly have no idea why some people think that’s somehow odd? In my experience it’s actually almost normal, and not just with Amway. I’ve worked with a lot of both wannabe and successful entrepreneurs with all sorts of ideas and most are like that with their business ideas and startups.

• @ibofightback

  There’s a burning question I must ask you. If Amway actually runs as you describe, and your explanation sounds reasonable, why did I have such a polar opposite impression of Amway and why do so many people view it as a scam? Surely there must be at least a grain or two of truth in other people’s experiences and viewpoints. At the two presentations I saw, it was implied that I could, in a relatively short time, quit my job and achieve financial freedom. (I didn’t buy it so I didn’t join)

• Be Real:

  I just read this other post on here about a different company:
  http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/stratus-building-solutions-franchise-are-stratus-franchisees-successful/
  This woman responds to these serious charges about her company. Her explanation wonderfully dodges the question and it sounds so reasonable while you’re reading it. But when your done, you still haven’t shaken the feeling that there’s some smarmy scam going on here, no matter how eloquent and logical its defenders are.

  I find ibofightback like that. He can half-convince you that there’s no way that any business can be evaluated because some people have lower expectations, just want to eat their own pizza out of their ovens and not sell to others, etc. etc. but even when you follow his rhetorical hocus pocus and shake your head in agreement, don’t you still feel like you need a shower?

  What legitimate company bestows the title Independent Business Distributor (IBO) one minute then claims they’re not really actual business owners the next?

  IMHO, ibofightback is a master word wrangler and logic twister, but at the end of the day his rhetorical skills don’t wash away the pervasive feeling that Amway is deserving of the sleazy reputation associated with its name and annoying representatives.

  Anyone agree?

• @Be Real – There’s an entire PhD thesis to be had in answering that question!

  The MLM model has an inherent feature which is both one of it’s greatest features and one of it’s greatest benefits, it’s low barriers to entry – I talk about this in The #1 problem with Amway and Multilevel Marketing. When you have no quality control mechanism in terms of either distributors or companies, then it should come as no real surprise that there are a lot of scam companies out there, and there are a lot of unprofessional and unethical people, even within the more established companies like Amway.

  So a lot of the poor experiences people report are perfectly legitimate experiences.

  Still, there really aren’t that many poor experiences. Some years back I analysed all the letters published by visitors to an anti-amway website. What I found was that while a third were reporting criticial experiences, an equal number were supportive of the company – and the rest were people with no experience merely researching. Most of those came away from the website with a negative opinion of the company – but they’d actually had no experience themselves. Consumer organisations like BBB and government run Consumer Affairs type departments report having very very few complaints about DSA member companies like Amway.

  A few years ago a UK University (name escapes me right now, I have the paper somewhere) did a global study on perceptions of the direct selling industry, which is virtually all MLM these days, and Amway was one of the companies mentioned in the study by name. They found that overall, people with actual experience with a company (either as customer or distributor) reported a positive opinion of the company, products, and industry. People who had never bought a product or been a distributor had negative opinions.

  So people were getting their opinions based essentially on hearsay. The internet has of course been a large part of that, something I talked about years back in Amway/Quixtar Myths, Psycho-facts and the Internet Echo Chamber and The Internet War Against Amway. There’s a lot of myths that get propogated around and around and around in a self-reinforcing cycle and there’s a ridiculous amount of ignorance out there. Brian Dunning, a prominent skeptic and someone whose opinion I generally respect, did a podcast on multilevel marketing and it was full of, frankly, utter tripe. He was talking about pyramid schemes, not MLM. He even went on to say direct sales companies like Avon were legitimate ways of doing business, but MLM was not. I pointed out to him in comments that this made no sense, since Avon was an MLM company, along with some other facts disputing what he had said. He asked for evidence, I provided a new comment with multiple supporting links and sources – he never published it. Robert Caroll’s Skeptic’s Dictionary is another example. It’s full of complete misinformation. My fiancee completed a graduate diploma of entrepreneurship a few years back and one of her lecturers disparaged multilevel marketing. I met with him for lunch and he clearly had no idea that MLM was not the same as pyramid schemes. I explained how companies like Amway actually work, and he agreed that if they operate like that, then they’re perfectly legitimate. He just had trouble accepting that’s what they actually did! How many of his past students now reflect his ignorance?

  Amway themselves didn’t help by effectively banning IBOs from defending the company and deciding that the best policy was simply to ignore critics. They also didn’t help themselves by not being way more proactive in stamping out bad behaviours that led to legitimate criticism. Thankfully that’s improved significantly, but it takes years to change perceptions.

  As to your final point, the evidence is clear that you can, in a relatively short period of time quit your job and achieve financial freedom through Amway. But that “relatively short period of time” is still years, and it requires a consistent effort throughout that whole time on top of what ever it is else your’re doing in life. Most IBO leaders will tell you it takes at least 1-2 years of 15 or 20 hours a week, on top of your full-time work, to develop a full-time equivalent income from Amway. The most prolific anti-Amway blogger on the internet, “joecool”, was an IBO for something like 8 months, had in that time actually developed reasonably significant volume, then quit and has spent years and multiple blogs telling people it doesn’t work! Without knowing details, in reality it sounds like his business was working, ahead of schedule!

  Part of the issue I suspect, even with people who work the business for a while, is that people mistake the concept’s simplicity with “easy”, so no matter what they’re told upfront, they think it’s going to be easy and they get frustrated when they discover it’s not.

• ibofightback,
  I said deceptive marketing tatics. A license is just a license to do business given by the state, is not a marketing tactic by the state, and not a title bestowed upon you naming you an independent buisness owner. However, I am not saying that amway intentionally used this a a deceptive practice, I just asked the question: could that be the case?
  Besides, it does not seem to me that amway ibos own a business. I see a business entity as having a unique name, a physical address, and products or services to sell.

  Case#1: If I buy products at craigslist with the intent to sell them later on, do I own a business? I don’t think so, but I have the intention to do business. If I put my own store to re-sale products and chose a name an location for that store I own a business.
  Case#2: A broker, owns ABC realty, is he a buisness owner? I think so. But what about the real estate agents selling under him for his company, are they business owners? I don’t think so, but they are in the business of selling real property, and their case is somewhat similar to an ibo who is in the business of selling amway products—although ibos differ in the sense that they get paid by the company, and can also make money directly from the public via retail sells (but this is minimal as I understand it)..

  However the above might not be so important as to that which really matters the most: Is amway a good business to be in?

  If you look at Subway vs Quiznos, quiznos has a higher failure rate than subway. And I know this by experience as well, as I used to see quizno’s stores closing, where new subway store open up for business. I read somewhere that quiznos has a failur rate of 25%, where as Subway 7%. If i was to invest in any of these buiness, this statics will matter. I am not going to concetrate on speculating that quiznos fail because the owners just happen to be more lazy, or because they were not working their business right, I don’t really care, reputable statictics and motr impoirtantly than the statictics, my personal expereice, have more wight than any speculation I can make about the former owners that fail.

  So how do this apply to amway? If only 1% is making any real money, should I concern my self as to why the 99% are making less than 115/ month? should I say that this people are not really working the business—how do I know?

  two more questions: Considering that I intent to join amway for my own personal consumption, and not work the buisness, as (you) spending 400$ dollars a month, how much money can I make? and do you think that by chosing to simply buy products for personal consumpion, I will come out ahead—financially– in amway, than buying at costco, walmart or other discount stores?

• I don’t consider the term “Independent Business Owner” is a “marketing tactic”. Some markets it’s “distributor”, some places it’s “Amway Business Owner”, some places it’s “Amway Independent Entrepreneur”. All sorts of things. You say “A license is just a license to do business given by the state”. Signing an Amway contract is just a right to market Amway products given by Amway. It’s not buying a business. Buying an Amway business is a different proposition altogether

  Your Case #1: Nope, you’re not in business just because of intent. If you get a location and pick a name, you’re still not in business, but you’re closer. You need to open. More importantly, if you simply market and resell those craig-list products, even out of your garage, you’re in business.

  Your Case #2: Some real estate agents are employees, others are independent contractors, like Amway distributors are. Independent contractors are considered businesses.

  I’d note that most larger Amway independent businesses are actually corporations , LLCs, and similar. In most jurisdictions you’re also required to register as a sole trader or similar if you are going to run as a business.

  Statistics matter, but so does context. Statistics out of context are at best dangerous, and at worst outright misleading. What if you were planning on opening a franchise in a mall and a bit of research discovers Quizno’s in malls have a 5% failure rate, and Subway’s in malls have a 25% failure rate?

  You should care why businesses fail, and you should also take personal experience with a grain of salt, it’s easily misleading.

  Your last two questions –

  Considering that I intent to join amway for my own personal consumption, and not work the buisness, as (you) spending 400$ dollars a month, how much money can I make?

  You won’t make any money. You might save some money, depending on your current shopping habits.

  do you think that by chosing to simply buy products for personal consumpion, I will come out ahead—financially– in amway, than buying at costco, walmart or other discount stores?

  Again, it depends on your individual shopping habits, but probably not, because Amway is not in competition with discount stores, it ‘s products are targeted to a completely different demographic.

• “Signing an Amway contract is just a right to market Amway products given by Amway. It’s not buying a business. Buying an Amway business is a different proposition altogether”—that’s precisely what I was trying to say

  regarding quiznos statement, I wasn’t saying that I will not consider quinoas to be a good opportunity by the 25% failure statistics( 75% success rate is still pretty good). For the right entrepreneur, even difficult business could be a great opportunity . What I was saying is that when comparing subway vs. quiznos as a business opportunity, and looking at the statistics, I am not going to take in consideration speculations that say the owners fail because they were probably not working the business right, or because they were lazy, or because they chose not to work the business.

  I think that Amway could be lucrative business opportunity, depending on the people you are targeting, and how saturated with Ibos that market is, among other factors. But will the structure, in any new growth from Amway, end up being the same as the current statistic show–1% vs. 99%? I don’t know, but I believe most likely close to it.

  Additionally, one good thing about starting an Amway business as opposed to a big one, like MacDonald’s, is that your initial investment is minimal—although your ongoing investment could be big, depending on how hooked you are with buying tools and attending seminars. But the question still remains: with 1% vs 99% statistics, is it worth puting time and effort in it? Truthfully I don’t know.

• Right now though, you’re doing almost the equivalent of judging the success rates of a Quiznos or Subway by assessing how many people who inquire about opening one are a “success” at it, instead of only looking at the ones that actually open a business, and completely ignoring all other factors.

  In assessing a business you need to look at all sorts of factors, which you go on to acknowledge.

  Regarding saturation, the number of IBOs in a market is pretty much irrelevant. Money isn’t made by sponsoring people. What’s important is whether there’s a market for the products. If there is, then there’s a market for you both to sell personally, and to build a team (ie sponsor IBOs) to sell.

  You’re making the very common error of assuming that the business is about sponsoring people. It’s not. Sponsoring people, like employing people in any other business, is merely a strategy to help improve sales, revenue, and profit.

  The 1:99 figure (which I don’t even think is accurate, we’re just throwing numbers around with that one) is a useless statistic for evaluating whether Amway is a worthwhile business to consider.

• Incidentally, Quiznos has a failure rate higher than 25%. Thousands of them are closing around the country. Why? Because the system was set up so that the fatcats at the top raked in the dough while the peons got to invest their life savings and end up in foreclosure.

  Quiznos should hire ibofatcat. He could explain how many Quiznos franchise owners really weren’t all that serious about their businesses. Really, you get out of things what you put in. In fact, many of them bought a Quiznos because the “member owners” liked the sandwiches and they could use the products themselves and save so much more money than having to eat elsewhere. :)

• ibofb made a series of comments that are designed to cover the truth. You will have to conclude ibofb is a consummate liar. Here’s my fact-based responses. If anybody wants to discuss these on a conference call via telephone or Skype, just let me know and I’ll arrange it for you. The following is a series of typical ibofb typical bullshit followed by my responses after the —>:

  @anon, – like I recommend any sane person do, I simply ignore anything Tex says. He is not well. —> What ibofb really does is dodges me and my questions. If I am not “well,” then the Wisconsin Attorneys General is also “not well,” as they concluded the average Direct (Platinum) loses over $900/year on average. In other words, the Platinum level is roughly the break even point. Most of those under them lose money, most of those above make money. Keep in mind the AG had to put together an analysis that would hold up in court under cross examination, and was not some disgruntled former IBO who had an ax to grind. Same with the UK regulators, they found far more than 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, and Amway didn’t challenge either of these analyses, and now IBOs in the UK are prohibited from making ANY tool profit, which also makes them “not well.” I have read hundreds, if not thousands, of similar posts by former IBOs on various blogs for the past half dozen years, all of whom are “not well.” The country of India limits tool prices to about 1/5 of what is charged in the U.S., taking away most if not all the profit, so they are also “not well.” In fact, I don’t know of a single country that has looked at the Amway Tool Scam and not taken drastic action as described above. That means there are a LOT of us that are “not well,” so welcome to the club! Cough! LOL

  I don’t know what Tex asked, as I said I don’t read his posts. —> That’s interesting, you read my blog all the time! Here’s a recent example:

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  Visit Number 95,050

  From “net profit” though it’s probably a standard leading, and unanswerable, question of Amway critics. —> What question could be more important to a business? That’s like asking about somebody’s religion and not caring about the nature of their god(s). Or a sports team not caring about physical conditioning. How much money you make is FUNDAMENTAL to any business. Gross profit has no meaning in the absence of knowing the overhead, because if the overhead is more than gross profit, the business is operating at a loss. This isn’t a “leading” question, it is THE fundamental question when it comes to any business, and particularly Amway, with the Amway Tool Scam.

  You have people like myself, who are registered as IBOs but not working the business, and my only “expense” is my yearly membership fee, akin to CostCo. —> In other words, by ibofb’s own words, you’re not taking advice from a business owner. Is ibofb telling us he doesn’t buy ANY upline books, CDs, videos, attend any meetings, pay for any web site, voice mail, etc.?

  Then you have people like (critic) JoeCool, who when he was an IBO was reportedly flying from Hawaii to the US mainland for conferences. —> Of course there are extreme examples/data points, but focusing exclusively on these misses the point. There are plenty of IBOs with overhead that is FAR in excess of their Amway gross profit, so using JoeCool to discount all of the other information is merely a red herring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring).

  From past encounters, critics like Tex and Robert FitzPatrick seem to ignore the fact that the majority of registered IBOs are more like me than JoeCool. —> ibofb regularly uses words similar to “like” and “seem,” but he is lying. ibofb also has a habit of dissing the statistics, averages, etc., but then throws out bombshells like this with absolutely no supporting source. The FACT is the majority of IBOs quit (technically, most of them simply don’t renew, which works everywhere except the UK) before they ever/hardly get started, and the vast majority of the others are being scammed by the Amway Tool Scams. I do not consider these IBOs in my Amway Tool Scam analysis. According to The Big Apple, a qualified Emerald who was scammed for years before going “independent,” and someone ibofb and I both know from blogging and visiting Prague, Czech Republic together in 2008, the number of IBOs like ibofb are minuscule. If you want more details, let’s talk, it takes too much time to type the details over and over again.

  Statistics used within various groups for example, generally reveal that out of that 100-200 people you might find in an “average” Platinum group, only 10-20 are actually spending any kind of significant time or money on their “business”. —> The question isn’t only about the exact percentage being scammed, the question is how much money does the upline make in the process, all while lying and pretending their financial success comes from Amway and not the tool scams. Again, the majority of IBOs don’t do anything, or hardly anything, so you have to take away 60-70% of IBOs off the top, leaving 30-40%, which means a large percentage of them are being scammed.

  I could go on with many other examples, but ibofb isn’t worth the time I’ve already spent on dismantling his “arguments.” Visit my blog to get the facts, and I am available if you want to talk: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/

• Hey Tex, Thanks for your offer, but I prefer to remain anonymous. Also, I hope that joecool’s comments about you being a racist is not true, because I am hispanic.

• Oops, I ment to say ” are not true”

• Oops again “meant” —man I really have to improve my English…next time I will type in a Word doc first to check my typos and misspelling

• anon,

  You don’t have to give up your anonymity to talk with me. We can use my conference number, and all you have to do is deal *67 before you call the number, and your number isn’t known to me. Try it on another couple of phones to verify.

  jc is a known liar, why you would believe anything he says is beyond me.

  Do you understand my responses to ibofb’s lies?

• Yes. I did enjoyed your post. I did asked some questions to ibofightback in an earlier post. I did it with the intent that after his answer, I could either understand his logic about why it is beneficial to pay to become and Ibo and understand the reason why people do it; or point out, as I suspected, that it does not seem logical to me that an Ibo will want to pay $168(this is how it was marked to me, so I assumed that many end up paying this sum) for a business that they never intended to work in the first place–as I remember, Ibofaghtback seems to want to give the impression that people want to become Amway “independent business owners” just to consume, when in fact he says that by self-consuming Amway products you “won’t make any money”; and when asked if I will come out ahead financially with Amway than with other stores, he says “…probably not”. Wouldn’t it be more logical for someone to just become a member consumer (or however they call them) ,if he or she likes Amway products, since they get the same price as an Ibo but without having to pay $165 to become an Ibo?

• Anon, you are mischaracterising what I said.

  1. The majority of the $168 you were presented with costs for purchasing products, at a further discounted price, not for joining the business. You are being dishonest to say you have to pay $165 to become an IBO.

  2. I did not say you wouldn’t come out financially better off compared “with other stores”, I said it in response to your specific question regarding specific discount, bulk stores. You will absolutely come out better off if you are purchasing products in the same category that Amway products are targeted towards.

  3. $165 is the US pricing for membership+(optional)IBOAI membership+(optional)product pack, so one can only assume you are in the US, yet you’re suggesting people should become member consumers rather than IBOs.

  Yet neither “member consumers” nor anything similar exists in the US.

  I can only conclude that you are not sincere in participating in this discussion and are deliberately obfuscating.

• You have spotted part of ibofb’s problem – he ignores the facts and presents his lies as if they were true. For examle, the $168 the person showing you the Amway business does not offer a $50 version. The only choice presented is the $168 option, which consists of the $50 required payment, plus some products and perhaps some tools, which are not required. But Amway doesn’t care if the only option presented is the $168 one, because they make money on the products. The business was probably not presented as a way to merely consume for yourself, right? But ibofb likes to make others think this option was presented when it probably wasn’t. For most people, it does make more sense to become a customer at IBO prices, unless they consume a LOT of products. But again, this option probably wasn’t presented to you, correct?

  Let me know whether you want to talk or not, thanks.

• Anon,

  Looks like ibofb posted right before I did. Do you see what I mean?

  1. Again, many people are shown ONLY the $168 option.
  2. What does ibofb mean by “same category”? He doesn’t answer my questions, so you’ll have to ask him yourself! LOL
  3. There used to be 3 categories in the U.S.: IBO, member, and customer. The member option was dropped years ago.

  You should only conclude that ibofb is not sincere in participating in this discussion and is deliberately obfuscating. LOL

• Just my .02. It sounds like you can gain benefit from Amway if you just want tp buy products and maybe sell a few items. It also sounds like trying to turn a hobby type business into a big business is where the problem occurs. If you are like ibofb, then the business is more or less benign and if you get caught up in the hype and continunous recruitment, of others you can get involved with scammers and a possible scam.

• It sounds like you can gain benefit from Amway if you just want tp buy products and maybe sell a few items. —> This is possible, but it isn’t how it is promoted by the upline. Therefore, it doesn’t happen very often.

  It also sounds like trying to turn a hobby type business into a big business is where the problem occurs. —> Yes, and the “big business” is what the upline heavily promotes. Wouldn’t you, if you were making several times more from the tools than from Amway?

  If you are like ibofb, then the business is more or less benign and if you get caught up in the hype and continunous recruitment, of others you can get involved with scammers and a possible scam. —> I am not like ibofb and the business is FAR from benign. It is an elaborate bait-and-switch scam.

• Tex, I get the impression that you and ibofb have some kind of history.

• wait for it …. wait for it …..

• Be Real,

  Where did you get that idea? LOL

• @ibofghtback: Let me start out by saying that I am not on the side of any-one either for Amway or against Amway. I look at both sides of the story, and I enjoy reading your post, tex post, and the other who have a point of view on this issue. However, when there is something that does not seem true or logical to me I point that out. Since you mention the concept of honesty, let us both try to abide on that as much as possible.

  ibofghhback said: “The majority of the $168 you were presented with costs for purchasing products, at a further discounted price, not for joining the business.”

  —>So what? I did not know that until now that you are letting me know. All I know is that when I asked how much it cost to joined, I was told $168 (I wasn’t sure if it was $165 or $168 until you verify it at $168 at an earlier post). I never said that this is definitely the case with every one, perhaps Ibos only present the $168 option in order not to explain that there are two options, maybe because is easier to sell, or is more profitable to the up-line, or maybe because they believe that an ibo will benefit the most by having a selling kit right from the start—again, I don’t know, but what I am saying is that if it was suggested to me that it cost $168 without letting me know the $50 option, that makes me think that there are other people to whom the only $168 quote was given—However, I do ackowledge that i don’t know this, that’s why I specifically clearly stated I “assumed”.

  ibofghback said: “You are being dishonest to say you have to pay $165 to become an IBO”

  —>When did I mention “have to”. Here is what I say “it does not seem logical to me that an Ibo will want to pay $168(this is how it was marked to me, so I assumed that many end up paying this sum)…” —-notice the words “want” , “assumed”, and “many”(not all?)

  ibofghback said: “I did not say you wouldn’t come out financially better off compared ‘with other stores’…”

  —>When I wrote “other stores” I was referring to a previous question in which I asked you if I will come out financially better buying at Amway than on discount stores such as Wal-Mart, Cusco, and the like, and that, part of your answer was “…probably not”….The whole point of that post was to express that it did not seem logical to me that a person would want to pay for Amway membership( even if it is $50) just to consume products when #1) he is not making any money by self consuming products and #2) he will probably not come out ahead financially when consuming products from Amway as opposed to other discount or membership such as Costco, Wal-Mart or the like–so the point is that under these circumstances if someone wants to just self consume (not eliminating the possibility that to him or her, it is not about ending up in financially better position, but rather about the liking of Amway products), he/she can simply be a consumer, get the same pricing as an Ibo, and not have to pay a dime, and later when he is ready to work the business, pay the Ibo fee. Here are my questions and answers you gave:

  Anon said: Considering that I intent to join Amway for my own personal consumption, and not work the business, as (you) spending 400$ dollars a month, how much money can I make?

  Ibofightback said: You won’t make any money. You might save some money, depending on your current shopping habits.

  Anon said: do you think that by chosing to simply buy products for personal consumpion, I will come out ahead—financially– in amway, than buying at costco, walmart or other discount stores?

  Ibofightback said: Again, it depends on your individual shopping habits, but probably not, because Amway is not in competition with discount stores, it ‘s products are targeted to a completely different demographic.

  Now, notice that we are talking here about what sounds logical and what not; that it does not seem logical to me that Ibos have join as “independent business owners” just to consume–but I never said that I know this to be the case. Truly I don’t know, all of it is speculation with logic thrown in (although I do acknowledge that the logic that we sometimes perceive is not always correct). That’s why I said in an earlier post, that when considering statistics (and I gave the example of Quiznos higher failure rate as opposed to subway) I would not concern myself with speculation as to why the Quiznos business owners have a higher failure rate—is it because they just wanted to consume the products for their big family who likes quiznos? is it because they were not serious?–all of this are speculations, what matters at the end are the facts, the truth.

  Ibofightback said: Yet neither “member consumers” nor anything similar exists in the US.

  —>I call it “member consumer” for lack of the exact term given to people who can sign up as members in Amway to simply consume products and get the same pricing as an Ibo (but without the right to do business—no ability to sign others under you, earn points etc.). And I made this clear by saying “member consumer (or however they call them)”—by the way, I know someone who has access to amway products as a member as described here.

  “I can only conclude that you are not sincere in participating in this discussion and are deliberately obfuscating”

  —>Your statements above about me were incorrect, so I conclude that your conclusion about those statements is also incorrect.

  P.S. As I said before, I am neither for nor against Amway, I am just simply learning about both sides, and having some fun in the process. I don’t know why this topic interest us to some degree–but I notice it is taking sometimes off from me, so I let others joined in the conversation. The only thing that I can conclude in the end is that to me, facts and truth matter the most. And with statistics such as 1% vs 99% for amway, for me, the valance tilts more towards against doing the business. But again, maybe there is something I am missing that I don’t know yet that will make me think otherwise—but as always I am open minded to facts, and the truth.

• Anon,

  You are merely the latest in a long line of people who have attempted to get the truth out of ibofb, he will lie, distort, confuse, mix up, accuse, etc., until you are blue in the fingertips. If you want the unvarnished truth, visit my site and don’t waste your time and energy on ibofb: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/ As I stated above, if you want to discuss details, we can talk without me knowing your phone number, all you have to do is let me know.

• anon – my apologies if I misinterpreted. Unfortunately I’ve dealt too often with people not discussing things in good faith, including well known “critics” of the business using multiple identities and pretending to be legitimately curious third parties.

  To your points –

  1. Joining fee.

  In evaluating the business itself you need to separate the (multitude) of ways people may promote the business with what is actually necessary or normal, and what you get in return. The joining fee is $50. If you buy the product pack, you get products, which are fully returnable if you don’t think they’re good value. The other fee is an optional union-like membership fee. Contrary to what Tex claimed (I don’t read his long rants, but do skim to see if he has anything amusing to say), none of the $168 is for “tools” or similar and it’s all clearly laid out in the registration form.

  In reality I’d suggest (and used to do this) that people seriously considering the business do up a full years budget of expenses for running an Amway business, including travel expenses, seminars, whatever. For a no frills just checking it out, decide later approach, just the joining fee and whatever products you might find of interest is fine. (note: all of which is refundable). Low cost, low risk.

  Either way, nobody is paying $168 to become an IBO, that’s statement f yours is simply wrong.

  2. You seem to be equating Amway with discount stores. Amway is not in competition with discount stores, so the question makes no sense. The types and categories of products the Amway business is based around are not generally for sale in discount stores. It’s like asking whether you’d save money if your bought your car from McDonald’s instead of GM. Some Amway groups have indeed tried to promote Amway as a way to get discount shopping, they’re wrong to do so and Amway does not approve of it. I wrote a post on this a few years back – ABOs – please stop selling Amway as a way to save money which may clarify what I mean. (apologies, many of the links on that article no longer work).

  3. I believe the “member” category was only briefly tried in the US some years back. It’s possible someone is still hanging around in that category, but more likely they’re registered as an IBO even though they’re not acting as one, or someone registered them as a customer (which is free) and was kind or silly enough to give them IBO pricing and forgo the majority of their profit margin. IBOs can set whatever price they like for individual customers.

• On the joining fee issue and the way people promote Amway, another old post Amway is not a scam but you can still be scammed talks a bit about it.

• My family has been involved in Amway since before I was born (going on 20 years now). My sister and her husband registered and began their business in August of this year, and they were just recognized for achieving their first pin level (balanced business for the last three months or something like that).

  My family doctor paid for his personal practice using Amway. When his wife was diagnosed with cancer in September, they didn’t have any hesitation starting treatment… or medical bills. They are also my family’s direct up-lines.

  I order products (such as energy drinks, soap, protein bars, vitamins/supplements, and skin care items) on a monthly basis as a “customer”, because I know these products are AWESOME (Sidenote: a few years back my IB biology teacher told me Xcess- the energy drink- is bad for you. So I had her read the ingredients list… She told me she had been wrong… and then she asked if she could get some).

  I’ve put off registering as an IBO because… well, like a lot of people, I’m pretty shy. I worked at a car dealership for a few months and it left me feeling horrible about myself for trying to pitch, sell, and just sucker “customers” in buying. Which is why in the past, I had refused to be involved in Amway personally.

  Things are changing for how I see this business. I’m lucky to have awesome up-lines and also to be coming into the business as “the plan” is being changed, up-lines (Rubies, Diamonds, and Double Diamonds) are becoming more readily available and supportive of their down-lines, and the product lines have been changed so drastically and they SAVE money (trust me… I’d post comparison’s of my monthly expenses as proof. Any money saved is… money saved!).

  I’m not an IBO yet… I’ve been too nervous about trying to “sell”, but selling for money is NOT the motivation to be involved in this business. An appropriate motivation for being an Independent Business Owner of Amway Global is to live a debt-free, honest, fulfilled life.

  I was listening to a Ruby Seminar CD earlier and I heard one man say, “You don’t know what you don’t know,” while making the point that if you’re raised in the 9-5 daily-grind lifestyle, that’s what you know and until you see that something else works, it’s not REAL and you can’t really KNOW it. I’m watching my sister make enough money to spend more time with her two daughters. She’s healthier because Nutrilite products are some of the best. Her goal, being my compassionate, strong (and strong-willed), empathetic sister, is to do everything in her power to HELP me do, and have the same lifestyle.

  Amway success stories are cheesy, but that doesn’t mean they’re one-in-a-million. Check out Julio Garcia. Started Amway when he was 18 and three years later he made Ruby ($60,000+ a year). He said once something along the lines of, in order to succeed in any arena you must first have FAITH. This is true in relationships, athletics, finances, and a normal day job.

  I’m going to blog about my experiences with Amway. And believe me, I’ll be honest when something isn’t what I expected (The caramel energy bars… not like a candy bar =/) or I’m not having a good month. I’ll post the blog info here later if anyone is interested in seeing a real-time story, rather than rich peoples’ success tapes.

  One final thing: I’m sorry if you’ve had a bad experience with an IBO, but it’s like having a experience at a car dealership- just because one associate sucked hard, doesn’t mean you’re never going to buy another car. =)

  And please don’t be mean to me! I may be too young and optimistic, but I don’t think those are discredits to what I believe.

  And finally, best of luck and be blessed in all you do- for Amway or elsewhere.
  (Holy wall-of-text, Batman! Didn’t mean to rant so long! Sorry if you read everything and think it was a waste!)

• Anon,

  The latest BS from ibofb is his “Mr. Reasonable” personality.

  1. There are many groups and many different amounts of money they promote to get started. Some of them promote only the Amway fee, some add products, some add tools. It is NOT as simple as ibofb makes it appear. The bottom line is a LOT of them add to the required amount and make it look as if it was required. So from the perspective of the prospect being shown how to join, ibofb’s statement is simply wrong. Also, some countries don’t have a fee to join, such as the UK, because Amway was almost kicked out of there in 2008 and the UK clamped down HARD in order for Amway to stay.

  2. I know you weren’t equating Amway with discount stores, you were merely trying to determine whether it made sense to be a customer based on your current buying habits. ibofb will continue to try to twist your reasons and logic to suit his needs. But remember, I am the one who is “not well.” LOL

  3. I don’t consider it “kind” or “silly” to charge IBO pricing to customers, the products are simply overpriced at suggested retail. This makes ibofb kind of silly, wouldn’t you agree? LOL
  2.

• Bekah,

  You’re right, you don’t know what you don’t know. The fact is Amway is a scam, learn about it here: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/

• Something doesn’t really add up. If Amway is not competeing with discount stores, why would someone sign up as an IBO just to buy products? If I can get it cheaper at Target, I’ll just go there. I don’t see the benefit of being associated with Amway. And then if I understand what Tex is saying, there’s some thing dishonest in the way the training or tools is distributed. All in all, it sounds like most people should just avoid Amway altogether, unless you really want their product and have no way to access it.

• Be Real – what doesn’t add up?

  Are you truly unaware that there is a whole world of retailing out there that doesn’t involve discount stores, and a whole world of products not available in discount stores?

  Do you know that the number of products you can’t buy at Target is magnitudes of levels bigger than the products you can buy at Target?

  But hey, if you’re the type of person who only shops at discount stores, then pretty unequivocally Amway is not for you, either as a customer or business owner, though you might still be interested in some of the Amway LOC cleaning range, which works out ridiculously cheap once diluted to instructions.

• Are you truly unaware that there is a whole world of retailing out there that doesn’t involve discount stores, and a whole world of products not available in discount stores? —> Of course s/he does, stop insulting him/her. The problem is most people buy most of their products at discount stores, that’s why these companies are so HUGE. Also, most people s/he knows also shop at discount stores, and the valid market for selling these products at IBO cost, let alone recommended retail prices, is tiny. Are you truly unaware we are in an economic slump, making this issue even more important than ever?

  Do you know that the number of products you can’t buy at Target is magnitudes of levels bigger than the products you can buy at Target? —> Do you know the number of products most people actually buy ARE available at Target and other discount stores?

  But hey, if you’re the type of person who only shops at discount stores, then pretty unequivocally Amway is not for you, either as a customer or business owner, though you might still be interested in some of the Amway LOC cleaning range, which works out ridiculously cheap once diluted to instructions. —> As described above, MOST people are “the type of person who only [actually, this is another insult, the word should be “usually” not “only,” except now ibofb is LOOKING for a fight and to paint you into extreme positions, as usual] shops at discount stores.” Actually, I found several other products that were cost competitive with Walmart and Krogers (grocery store) in 2006, before the 2009 Amway price reductions. However, making a business out of LOC is very difficult, as it is so concentrated and last so long.

• Be Real,

  The products are overpriced and the PV/BV payout is too low. The UK prices decreased by as much as a reported 80% after Amway got in trouble with the regulators. The reason is because the upline doesn’t care what the prices are, as they make most of their profit from the tools, so why rock the boat over the high prices or low PV/BV payout?

• Tex,

  The products are not overpriced. I’m saving money changing out where I buy my caffeine, laundry soap, and personal care products. I’m 100% sure that I’m NOT budgeting incorrectly or doing my math wrong. Yet, you seem 100% positive that you’re right, no matter what. Oh, well.

• Anon, I have always had the “fee” to join told to me as being right about $200. And I agree, not once was the $50 basic fee ever offer or told, and I’ve heard 3 pitches from 2 IBOs.

  Bekah, you have a great inspirational story. Unfortunately, I’ve heard similar stories from IBOs and their speakers. It is not uncommon for doctors, lawyers and other highly educated people to be involved in MLM businesses; their background does not lend credibility. What you believe is simply what you believe. Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t do something. Join Amway and update us in 3-5 years.

  Tex, I don’t understand why so many people (other than ibofb) don’t like your comments even when they seem to be on your side. I agree with you that the tool system itself a scam, but that goes hand in hand with deceit and outright dishonesty of the IBO and their uplines. I welcome a conference call with you and others, especially with any IBOs lurking here.

• Guest on November 10th, loved your post.

• Bekah,

  If you bothered to read my posts for comprehension, you would realize I said SOME Amway products are competitively priced. Put your prices and products on this blog for the caffeine, laundry soap, and personal care products you think are not overpriced. Let’s stop this “Oh, well” BS and get down to the FACTS.

  Mi Nombre Es,

  Thanks for confirming the advertised priced to join, and what ibofb is denying is true. ibofb is worse than the LCKs, because he is trying to defend their actions. At least they slink away like the snake in the grass they know they are! LOL

  I doubt Bekah is going to do anything as an IBO, I’ve seen numerous people like her that are all talk and no action.

  Frankly, I didn’t understand why so many people also don’t like my comments, even when they agree with them, for the longest time. All I do is tell the unvarnished TRUTH. However, when you consider events like the Holocaust and the more recent Penn State debacle, you learn that most people want to “go along to get along” rather than do the right thing, and more people are hurt in the process of doing nothing meaningful to stop the wrong.

  If you want to talk, the conference number is 760-569-6000 and the access code is 975016#. Dial *67 first if you want to keep your number confidential. You’ll also have to coordinate a calling time with me, I live in the Central time zone, so keep that in mind when you propose a call time. You can propose a time here or email me at hawaiianibo@yahoo.com.

• What happed to Shekhar, the IBO?

• Shekhar? Here’s his last post:

  ■Shekhar on October 8th, 2011 7:59 pm
  My marriage has ended. I have no more savings. My rooms are full of products I cannot use. I am in financial ruin and I have no money to retire with.

  Amway has ruined me. I should have listened. I was so sure this would work out.

• RE: Shekhar

  I suspect that last comment from Shekhar was bogus. It had a different email address and IP address than the original Shekhar comments.

  The real Shekhar is MIA. Perhaps his yacht is in a tropical area so remote he can’t even get satellite Internet access. ;)

• “Guest on November 10th, loved your post.”

  Mi Nombre Es:
  De nada.
  Glad you liked it.

• I am from India and came to this country in 1997, initially to california. I was approached by many folks/ friends from Amway with their usual spiel. I was smart/ lucky enough to recognise the scam immediately and refused to join. The modeus operandi seemed to be that while shopping in a grocery store, another Indian guy or girl would come to the same Aisle, and then make comments like “Are you from Bombay”? Or I have seen you at so and so’s party. After a while when someone would open a conversation with these kind of lines, I would counter with “Are you from Amway”?

  Anyway, the whole point of this rant is that, instead into getting into Amway or any other MLM scam, I studied and learnt a lot about investing. That’s a better and safer way to save and grow savings. Many companies allow you to buy stocks directly from them (like Exxon Mobil) without any fees. Many companies also allow one to buy stocks directly for small amounts like $50 every month. For all those who are contemplating joining Amway, or are disillusioned with Amway, this is a better route to financial safety.

  Ravi

• Not getting ripped off by the Amway Tool Scam and doing nothing else puts you way ahead of where Amway would take you!

• I am the person know as “anon” above. Here I will be “explorer” –same goes for coming post if I post again

  ibofbck,

  Do you think Amway did wrong in the case of James Dyson vs. Amway? According to a post I read by David Bear as well as other sources, Amway tried to cheat Dyson by having him disclose the secretes of his invention to Amway, and Amway, after having the drawings of Dyson’s invention, falsely accused Dyson of being a scam artist. Shortly after however, Amway went on to sell a version of Dyson’s modified invention. Dyson of course, sued Amway and ended up winning, and later went on to publish a book in which he cited the incident. Amway did not want the information in the book to be published, and did try to stop the publishing of the book, but to no avail

  So what’s Amway’s side of the story on this?

• Explorer – re Dyson v Amway, no idea, I’ve only ever read one side of the story (not Amway’s), and it’s usually a reasonable bet that whatever Brear says is biased significantly beyond the truth.

  I suspect it’s a case of a not unusual business dispute where both sides think they’re right, and both sides may have reason to think so.

  Having said that, I’m under no pretense that Amway are saints, I criticise them fairly often mysel. There a huge business. They screw up things occasionally, and occasionally that can end up screwing over people. I’m sure they justify it to themselves though, like most of us do.

• David Brear is not the only one that has something to say about this case. I have not read Dyson’s book, but there is a quote here http://www.amquix.info/amway_dyson.html, in which Dyson cites the incident himself.
  How can there have been a business dispute, when according the sources that are talking about this case, there was no business agreement in the first place at the time Amway was selling Dyson’s invention behind his back? Who would come to Amway to show his great ideas and nod his head in agreement when Amway tells him that they will use his invention for FREE? If it is true that Amway was selling Dyson’s invention without his consent and without paying him a penny, than more than a business dispute, this will be consider a case against a criminal act–robbery.

• Amquix is also a very obviously biased against Amway site, so I’m not sure why you think I’d think it’s not! Dyson of course has his side of the story too. He’s biased towards himself obviously.

  We have no idea what Amway’s side of the story is, which undoubtedly would be biased towards themselves. There was however counterclaims in the lawsuit, and Amway was obviously spending a lot of $$$ defending themselves, including international depositions from the UK (presumably of Dyson employees or associates) so clearly they thought they had some kind of defence against the claims.

  In the end the parties settled out of court, and without knowing all sides of the story it’s impossible for we mere mortals to know where the truth actually is.

• Just read the parts of Dyson’s book that are available on Amazon, and even he has the graciousness to note the same as I did – “Of course, this is my telling of the story, not Amway’s. Indeed they steadfastly denied that they had done anything wrong and countersued for damages from me”

  The pages where he discusses the settlement aren’t available unfortunately.